Works, Salvation, Merit

[Right Divider]

With regards God's will, with regards to the kinds of acts he is look for, see the parable of the sheep and goats:

Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Learn about context.

 

[Interplanner]

Are they leftists if they are on the left?

 

[RevTestament]

In the Hebrew to say you believe, but not do, is to not believe.

 

[Desert Reign]

.....He doesn't respond by saying first you must do this, that or the other. He responds by saying "today salvation has come to this house"

No it's not good enough, either the gift is free or it is not, it doesn't matter how small a condition you put, that condition still makes salvation an earned thing

It is a lot simpler than this Totty: forgiveness is a free gift as you say. There are however, requirements to keeping it. You received it freely but God is also free to take it back.

What you are doing Totty, is mis-characterising those who you call 'the workers'. I don't know of anyone who says that you must earn your salvation. But I know a lot of people who think that you can lose it if you continually choose to do things which are not taught by Jesus.

+++++++++++++

On a related note: when you are forgiven by God, when you are saved, etc., time doesn't suddenly stop, the world is not frozen. Life goes on, the world goes on, you get older, you get married and have children, you keep living your life, you keep on making decisions from day to day, and you can still make bad ones if you choose.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is a lot simpler than this Totty: forgiveness is a free gift as you say. There are however, requirements to keeping it. You received it freely but God is also free to take it back.

+++++++++++++

On a related note: when you are forgiven by God, when you are saved, etc., time doesn't suddenly stop, the world is not frozen. Life goes on, the world goes on, you get older, you get married and have children, you keep living your life, you keep on making decisions from day to day, and you can still make bad ones if you choose.

No, this is the point at issue DR, God's gifts and calling are TOTALLY without repentance, irrevocable...if now God withdraws His salvation that PROVES it was just a trick to say it was free.

We may lose the immediate blessings and benefits of salvation...that is the point, I think a great many do. That is what Paul meant to be cut off from Christ.

Yes but we RECIEVED life didn't we? Jesus is now our Shepherd

 

[csuguy]

Learn about context.

That bolded line doesn't change anything. It simply means just that - all of the nations - aka all of the people thereof - are brought before him. Or do you imagine these to be land masses?

 

[csuguy]

No, this is the point at issue DR, God's gifts and calling are TOTALLY without repentance, irrevocable...if now God withdraws His salvation that PROVES it was just a trick to say it was free.

We may lose the immediate blessings and benefits of salvation...that is the point, I think a great many do. That is what Paul meant to be cut off from Christ.

Yes but we RECIEVED life didn't we? Jesus is now our Shepherd

Actually, in the parable just before the parable of the sheep and the goats, he provides the parable of the talents. See what it says:

Matthew 25:14-30 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five [a]talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your [c]master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money [d]in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

See here - one who squanders God's gifts, who doesn't use them faithfully, shall have what he has been blessed with taken from him and he shall be thrown out into the darkness.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Actually, in the parable just before the parable of the sheep and the goats, he provides the parable of the talents. See what it says:

Matthew 25:14-30 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five [a]talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your [c]master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money [d]in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

See here - one who squanders God's gifts, who doesn't use them faithfully, shall have what he has been blessed with taken from him and he shall be thrown out into the darkness.

The trick is in determining to who this parable was spoken, I know Paul said he was a slave, but here at least Jesus takes precedence, He does not call us servants but friends...more we are sons and daughters by adoption, heirs. nay CO-HEIRS.

Can the servants who received talents be the church? I will show why they cannot be.

Paul speaking about the catching up of the church in Corinthians and Thess says that in a twink we shall all be changed. The dead in Christ are first to rise then we who remain are caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air so shall we ever be with the Lord Mortality will have put on immortality.

This is not the general resurrection of the quick and the dead which precedes the judgement. That is an entirely different event, it comes AFTER the saints have reigned with the Lord for a thousand years.

We, John teaches, have passed over from judgement to life. The church does not feature at all in the last judgement.

I feel quite sure you won't accept any of that...this I say, see yourself as God sees you, you are of the Lord's flock, you belong to Him and not a single one has gotten lost but the Good Shepherd has gone after it and has found it and brought it home rejoicing...so that He is able to say to the Father

"of the men Thou hast given Me I have lost none...except the son of perdition"

 

[Zeke]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation. Faith-only folks defend the first and criticize anything else as if it were the second - as if people were trying to earn their way into heaven. They do not consider the other option: that while we do not earn salvation, that we do not earn forgiveness, there are requirements to God's gifts.

Let us consider the gift of forgiveness. In a parable of a king settling his accounts (Matthew 18:21-35) Jesus speaks of a man who owed 10,000 talents but was unable to pay the debt. He is forgiven this debt by the king. However, this same man is owed 100 denarii by another who cannot pay him back. Rather than show him the same mercy he has recieved, he has the other man put in prison until he can pay back his debt. Upon hearing of this, the king revokes his forgiveness from the first man and has him thrown in prison until he can pay back all of his debts.

There are two important points to this story. First it makes clear that there is at least one requirement to the gift of forgiveness: you must forgive others their sins when they repent. If you don't, then neither will God forgive you. Secondly, the story points out the vast difference in debt that the first man had to the king versus what the first man was owed by another. 10,000 talents vs 100 denarii. So one cannot say if the first man had forgiven the second that that he thereby earned his own forgiveness.

And this is the key to understanding why it can be said that there are requirements to salvation, but that we do not earn salvation. God's blessings and promises to us are so much greater than what is required of us. God forgives us all of our sins when we repent, adopts us as his sons and daughters, and makes us co-heirs with Christ of the Kingdom. He asks us to forgive those who repent. Christ gave his life so to reconcile us to God and to give us eternal life. We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him, to use our lives to do God's will.

God's gifts have requirements - but so great is the gift in comparison to the requirements that we cannot even begin to say that we have somehow earned it.

Yet the son of promise has no irons in that fire, Isaac/Jesus the second born in man from above is revealed by revelation not by flesh and blood Galatians 1:12-16, morality/sin of the earthly first born has nothing to do with the process of the Divine birth of promise Galatians 4:24-25, Galatians 4:28 shows that if we are like Isaac then that birth is inwardly and not a first born of flesh, Sarah being the Jerusalem above Galatians 4:26-28, MT Zion of the invisible God that no first born of the flesh has seen John 1:18.

 

[csuguy]

The trick is in determining to who this parable was spoken, I know Paul said he was a slave, but here at least Jesus takes precedence, He does not call us servants but friends...more we are sons and daughters by adoption, heirs. nay CO-HEIRS.

Can the servants who received talents be the church? I will show why they cannot be.

Paul speaking about the catching up of the church in Corinthians and Thess says that in a twink we shall all be changed. The dead in Christ are first to rise then we who remain are caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air so shall we ever be with the Lord Mortality will have put on immortality.

This is not the general resurrection of the quick and the dead which precedes the judgement. That is an entirely different event, it comes AFTER the saints have reigned with the Lord for a thousand years.

We, John teaches, have passed over from judgement to life. The church does not feature at all in the last judgement.

I feel quite sure you won't accept any of that...this I say, see yourself as God sees you, you are of the Lord's flock, you belong to Him and not a single one has gotten lost but the Good Shepherd has gone after it and has found it and brought it home rejoicing...so that He is able to say to the Father

"of the men Thou hast given Me I have lost none...except the son of perdition"

The parable is concerning the kingdom of God and of the judgement. All three parables in Matthew 25 are addressing the same thing.

Trying to dismiss it because it speaks of 'servants' rather than 'friends' is silly. While we are considered more than just servants, that does not mean that we are not servants. You yourself recognize that Paul calls himself a servant/slave.

You are grasping at straws to dismiss the consistent teaching of the scriptures.

 

[patrick jane]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation. Faith-only folks defend the first and criticize anything else as if it were the second - as if people were trying to earn their way into heaven. They do not consider the other option: that while we do not earn salvation, that we do not earn forgiveness, there are requirements to God's gifts.

Let us consider the gift of forgiveness. In a parable of a king settling his accounts (Matthew 18:21-35) Jesus speaks of a man who owed 10,000 talents but was unable to pay the debt. He is forgiven this debt by the king. However, this same man is owed 100 denarii by another who cannot pay him back. Rather than show him the same mercy he has recieved, he has the other man put in prison until he can pay back his debt. Upon hearing of this, the king revokes his forgiveness from the first man and has him thrown in prison until he can pay back all of his debts.

There are two important points to this story. First it makes clear that there is at least one requirement to the gift of forgiveness: you must forgive others their sins when they repent. If you don't, then neither will God forgive you. Secondly, the story points out the vast difference in debt that the first man had to the king versus what the first man was owed by another. 10,000 talents vs 100 denarii. So one cannot say if the first man had forgiven the second that that he thereby earned his own forgiveness.

And this is the key to understanding why it can be said that there are requirements to salvation, but that we do not earn salvation. God's blessings and promises to us are so much greater than what is required of us. God forgives us all of our sins when we repent, adopts us as his sons and daughters, and makes us co-heirs with Christ of the Kingdom. He asks us to forgive those who repent. Christ gave his life so to reconcile us to God and to give us eternal life. We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him, to use our lives to do God's will.

God's gifts have requirements - but so great is the gift in comparison to the requirements that we cannot even begin to say that we have somehow earned it.

it is a false dilemma because it's not a dilemma, Jesus Christ Saves Completely - it is that simple. Believing is Faith. there is no two ways about it. works do nothing to earn or secure a place in heaven. the only requirement is Faith - Boom - pow pow

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Belief is different than faith. Two separate words. Two separate meanings and definitions. Though belief is an element and foundation of faith.

 

[patrick jane]

Belief is different than faith. Two separate words. Two separate meanings and definitions. Though belief is an element and foundation of faith.

i don't care - i think i know it's 2 different words with definitions. can you have one without the other ? NO - go back to bed

 

[csuguy]

it is a false dilemma because it's not a dilemma, Jesus Christ Saves Completely - it is that simple. Believing is Faith. there is no two ways about it. works do nothing to earn or secure a place in heaven. the only requirement is Faith - Boom - pow pow

So then - do you believe sin and forgiveness are irrelevant to salvation?

 

[turbosixx]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation. Faith-only folks defend the first and criticize anything else as if it were the second - as if people were trying to earn their way into heaven. They do not consider the other option: that while we do not earn salvation, that we do not earn forgiveness, there are requirements to God's gifts.

Let us consider the gift of forgiveness. In a parable of a king settling his accounts (Matthew 18:21-35) Jesus speaks of a man who owed 10,000 talents but was unable to pay the debt. He is forgiven this debt by the king. However, this same man is owed 100 denarii by another who cannot pay him back. Rather than show him the same mercy he has recieved, he has the other man put in prison until he can pay back his debt. Upon hearing of this, the king revokes his forgiveness from the first man and has him thrown in prison until he can pay back all of his debts.

There are two important points to this story. First it makes clear that there is at least one requirement to the gift of forgiveness: you must forgive others their sins when they repent. If you don't, then neither will God forgive you. Secondly, the story points out the vast difference in debt that the first man had to the king versus what the first man was owed by another. 10,000 talents vs 100 denarii. So one cannot say if the first man had forgiven the second that that he thereby earned his own forgiveness.

And this is the key to understanding why it can be said that there are requirements to salvation, but that we do not earn salvation. God's blessings and promises to us are so much greater than what is required of us. God forgives us all of our sins when we repent, adopts us as his sons and daughters, and makes us co-heirs with Christ of the Kingdom. He asks us to forgive those who repent. Christ gave his life so to reconcile us to God and to give us eternal life. We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him, to use our lives to do God's will.

God's gifts have requirements - but so great is the gift in comparison to the requirements that we cannot even begin to say that we have somehow earned it.

Well said, I couldn't agree more.

 

[patrick jane]

So then - do you believe sin and forgiveness are irrelevant to salvation?

is that what i said ? it's funny how folks want to introduce additional words from their own personal idea of salvation. i said belief in Christ is Faith. not belief that the sun will set or anything else - faith is belief (evidence) in things not seen - evidence to the believer. forgiveness is not irrelevant and all have sinned. sin IS irrelevant because of Christ Jesus, and as Paul writes - that doesn't mean we can sin willfully -

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

i don't care - i think i know it's 2 different words with definitions. can you have one without the other ? NO - go back to bed

One you can have without the other- belief. One you can't have without the other - faith.
We are saved by faith through grace. Not of works so that so man may boast. And faith without works does not save. Faith is synonymous with trust. Faith is an action. I can believe the chair will save me from falling without sitting in the chair but that is not faith in the chair saving me from falling. Faith in the chair saving me from falling is the work of sitting in the chair and believing the chair will save me from falling by the work of sitting in the chair so that it can and does save me from falling.

 

[csuguy]

is that what i said ? it's funny how folks want to introduce additional words from their own personal idea of salvation. i said belief in Christ is Faith. not belief that the sun will set or anything else - faith is belief (evidence) in things not seen - evidence to the believer. forgiveness is not irrelevant and all have sinned. sin IS irrelevant because of Christ Jesus, and as Paul writes - that doesn't mean we can sin willfully -

If forgiveness is relevant then so is sin. For what are you forgiven but your sins? And if you aren't forgiven then you don't have salvation.

 

[patrick jane]

If forgiveness is relevant then so is sin. For what are you forgiven but your sins? And if you aren't forgiven then you don't have salvation.

all have sinned, thus we need a Savior. what is a savior but forgiveness.
my sin was forgiven before i was born; before the world. again, believing is faith, that was the point, still is. bye - atrol:

 

[csuguy]

all have sinned, thus we need a Savior. what is a savior but forgiveness.
my sin was forgiven before i was born; before the world. again, believing is faith, that was the point, still is. bye - atrol:

Christ teaches that if you do not forgive others then your own forgiveness is revoked.