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[glassjester]

Mark 10:6 would be only one of the verses showing Jesus was a Biblical creationist. That verse ties Adam and Eve to Gen.1:1, "the beginning". (Not the beginning of people)

Except people were not created on the first day.
So He must have been referring to the beginning of people.

In*Luke 11:50, 51*Jesus referred to Abel as a prophet from the foundation of the world. (Not 14 billion years later) *“That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed*from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias.

Again... Abel was not created at the beginning of the world, was he?

The Greek word used there, for "from" (ἀπὸ) also means "since."
So Jesus is referring to all the blood shed since/from the beginning of time. As in, the total of all the blood.

Mark 13:19 refers to mans tribulations from the beginning of creation. As the Creator, Jesus obviously knew when creation ocurred.*

"For in those days there will be tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again."

Again, the Greek word used there, for "from" ( ἀπ') also means "since."

Besides, all that means is that there has never, ever been suffering such as that. It doesn't mean there was suffering like that at the beginning of time.

Luke 13:14 Jesus connects a literal six day work week to Ex. 20:11 and the six day creation....and a literal 7th Sabbath day.*

No. Jesus was accused of not observing the Sabbath.
That's a huge stretch, really. Jesus acknowledged the existence of a 7 day week, therefore He's a YEC?
Come on.

John 5:45-47 Jesus suggests that if you don't believe Moses, you likely won't believe Him. Jesus was not suggesting Moses should be interpreted in any way other than the plain reading.

He wasn't suggesting a strict literal interpretation of Genesis, either.

But even if you wish you believe that He was... Who was He addressing in John 45, when He said, "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set." ?

Also.... the very purpose of Christ's life was to suffer physical death on our behalf. His death and resurrection becomes meaningless if physical death in our world existed before Adam sinned. The gospel message becomes compromised, or destroyed, by adding long ages before Adam and Eve.

Does Christ save toads? Oak trees?

Or does the Gospel pertain only to human life, human death, and human salvation?

 

[6days]

Mark 10:6 would be only one of the verses showing Jesus was a Biblical creationist. That verse ties Adam and Eve to Gen.1:1, "the beginning". (Not the beginning of people)

Except people were not created on the first day.
So He must have been referring to the beginning of people.

Jesus didn't say "first day" or "first minute". He did say "from the beginning of creation". We have God's account of the beginning and creation in Genesis 1. (And it was over the course of six days) Jesus said from "the beginning" ...the perspective is correct since He referred to an event that happened over the course of six days, about 4,000 years previous.

In Luke 11:50, 51 Jesus referred to Abel as a prophet from the foundation of the world. (Not 14 billion years later) “That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias."

Again... Abel was not created at the beginning of the world, was he?

Your argument is silly. (By your logic, Abel was not created at the beginning of people either)
Jesus referred to Abel as a person from the foundation of the world.

The Greek word used there, for "from" (ἀπὸ) also means "since."
So Jesus is referring to all the blood shed since/from the beginning of time. As in, the total of all the blood.

Ok...So Jesus referred to Abel as a person*since the foundation of the world?
If you want to check how 20 different teams of scholars translate it... http://biblehub.com/luke/11-50.htm

**
Mark 13:19 refers to mans tribulations from the beginning of creation. As the Creator, Jesus obviously knew when creation ocurred.
"For in those days there will be tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again."

Again, the Greek word used there, for "from" ( ἀπ') also means "since."

Ok... so Jesus refers to mans tribulations since*the beginning of creation.

Besides, all that means is that there has never, ever been suffering such as that. It doesn't mean there was suffering like that at the beginning of time.

Sure. Like I said, "Jesus refers to mans tribulations since*the beginning of creation.".* Jesus was not confused... man was from the beginning...not at the end of billions of years of time.*

**
Luke 13:14 Jesus connects a literal six day work week to Ex. 20:11 and the six day creation....and a literal 7th Sabbath day.

No. Jesus was accused of not observing the Sabbath.
That's a huge stretch, really. Jesus acknowledged the existence of a 7 day week, therefore He's a YEC?
Come on.

Jesus referred to the days as 24 hour periods of time.**

**
John 5:45-47 Jesus suggests that if you don't believe Moses, you likely won't believe Him. Jesus was not suggesting Moses should be interpreted in any way other than the plain reading.

He wasn't suggesting a strict literal interpretation of Genesis, either.

He ALWAYS referred to the writings of Moses as true, accurate literal history.*

But even if you wish you believe that He was... Who was He addressing in John 45, when He said, "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set." ?

Sorry...I'm not sure what you are suggesting? It seems pretty straight forward. Jesus was saying that Moses had wrote about Christ.

Also.... the very purpose of Christ's life was to suffer physical death on our behalf. His death and resurrection becomes meaningless if physical death in our world existed before Adam sinned. The gospel message becomes compromised, or destroyed, by adding long ages before Adam and Eve.

Does Christ save toads? Oak trees?

I think your argument is that God created a world where death, pain, suffering and extinctions was all part of what God called "very good"? After Adam sinned, God pronounced a curse upon His creation. Part of that curse was death to humans and vertebrates (nepesh chayyah 'living creatures'...Oak trees are not living creatures.)

But Hugh Ross and other theistic evolutionists seem to think that physical death already existed before sin.
However..... If you believe physical death was part of God's "very good" creation (Gen.1:31), then I would argue the Gospel is compromised, if not destroyed.
Reasons we know the curse of death was a physical death. (The curse was not to humans only, but to all creation.)
1. Genesis 2:17 in the KJV reads "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"

Well... Adam did eat of the tree, and he did not physical die that day. So is the verse only referring to spiritual death / separation from God? No... The Hebrew actually suggests a dying process. A more literal translation would be "dying you shall die" or less literally "for as soon as you eat of it, you shall be doomed to die". http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/die.html

A few examples from other translations...
Young's Literal Translation
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

New International Version
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
New Living Translation
except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die."

2. The Bible attributes physical death to sin...specifically referring to Adam. And here is the Gospel....
1Cor. 15: 21 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive"Also see Rom. 5:12-19

3. The Bible refers to death as evil... it is the enemy.
1 Cor. 15:26 "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

So... if physical death is evil... its hard to rationalize that with Genesis 1:31 where God calls His creation " very good". Obviously physical death did not exist until sin entered the world.

(Sad side note... The story of Charles Templeton...amazing evangelist...but he compromised on the matter death before sin, and he eventually turned away from God)

4. If physical death already existed before sin... then why did Christ need to physically die and be resurrected? If the curse in Genesis 2 was only a spiritual death to Adam, then Christ only need to rise, or defeat, spiritual death. Clearly, in 1 Cor. 15:26, physical death was part of the curse which Christ conquers.*

5. To imagine that Genesis 2:17 is not referring to physical death, is refuted in Genesis 3:19 (Using KJV again) "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Physical death ...returning to dust, IS part of the curse. It is something that Christ has defeated and we can join Him in the resurrection. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Rev. 21:4

 

[glassjester]

Ok... so Jesus refers to mans tribulations since*the beginning of creation.
Sure. Like I said, "Jesus refers to mans tribulations since*the beginning of creation.".*

How many presidents have been assassinated, since the U.S.A. was founded?

If you answer, "four," does that imply they were assassinated right at the beginning?
Or is it just four total, since the beginning?

I think your argument is that God created a world where death, pain, suffering and extinctions was all part of what God called "very good"? After Adam sinned, God pronounced a curse upon His creation. Part of that curse was death to humans and vertebrates (nepesh chayyah 'living creatures'...Oak trees are not living creatures.)

Oak trees are most definitely living things!

But Hugh Ross and other theistic evolutionists seem to think that physical death already existed before sin.
However..... If you believe physical death was part of God's "very good" creation (Gen.1:31), then I would argue the Gospel is compromised, if not destroyed.

Adam's sin brought death to Man.
Where does the Bible say that animals and plants didn't die before then?

How would that even work? Surely Adam and Eve ate food. Even if you are forced to argue that they would have been vegetarians, surely any plant they ate would die when they chewed it up and digested it, no?

And what about God's command for the animals to reproduce? Did He also command them to stop at a certain point? If none were ever going to die, did God plan to have the Earth overrun with every type of animal?

 

[6days]

Jesus refers to mans tribulations since the beginning of creation.

How many presidents have been assassinated, since the U.S.A. was founded?
If you answer, "four," does that imply they were assassinated right at the beginning?
Or is it just four total, since the beginning?

Your analogy seems to suggest Jesus was a bit deceitful; or, at best that He wasn't very clear in His teaching. If Jesus believed in an old earth, He surely would have spoken clearly, and not connected Adam and Eve to the beginning of creation. Jesus, on more than one occasion mentioned humanity in the same breath as the beginning of creation. (Mark 10:6) The Greek word for beginning is 'arche' ...a word denoting an absolute. It was not a subsequent beginning...It was not the beginning of humanity, but the beginning of creation. The Greek wording for 'since the creation of the world' in that verse is "apo ktiseos kosmou". The Greek word 'apo' as a preposition means 'The beginning point'. Greek 'kosmou' (kosmos) refers to the universe.

Author Wayne Jackson explains..."Unquestionably this language puts humankind at the very dawn of creation. To reject this clear truth one must contend that:
(a) Christ knew the universe was in existence billions of years prior to man, but accommodated himself to the ignorance of his generation deliberately misrepresenting the situation; or,
(b) The Lord living in pre-scientific times was uninformed about the matter (despite the fact that he was there as Creator). Either one of these allegations is a reflection upon the Son of God and his blasphemous

I think your argument is that God created a world where death, pain, suffering and extinctions was all part of what God called "very good"? After Adam sinned, God pronounced a curse upon His creation. Part of that curse was death to humans and vertebrates (nepesh chayyah 'living creatures'...Oak trees are not living creatures.)

Oak trees are most definitely living things!

They are not living creatures (Hebrew 'nepesh chayyah'. God describes humans and vertebrate animals with that term -life blood and air breathing). Its not how you or I define the word 'living', but How God defined what was living creatures.

But Hugh Ross and other theistic evolutionists seem to think that physical death already existed before sin.
However..... If you believe physical death was part of God's "very good" creation (Gen.1:31), then I would argue the Gospel is compromised, if not destroyed.

Adam's sin brought death to Man.
Where does the Bible say that animals and plants didn't die before then?

You keep including plants, but plants are not called living beings in scripture. And, I don't think I can be adamant about no animal death before sin, but there are a number of verses that suggest that. For ex. Gen. 1:30 commands man and animals to have a vegetarian diet. It was much later (Ch.9) after sin had been in the world that God said 'Before I gave you plants to eat, but now you can eat everything'.