Why would God need a hell?

[Arthur Brain]

you are going to hell you should step up and admit your fate

oh wait you have not said what you believe is going to happen to you

Yeah, um, you're still not making sense and your punctuation seems to have gone to 'hell' or somewhere ahead of you, so try again?

 

[patrick jane]

Unfortunately true. I've yet to hear a person who thinks they'll suffer the torments of "hell" that they justify for others. Go figure...

That could be a monster thread. A different kind of deservedness per se. Which spell check says isn't a word. However, AB is spot on when he points out that many folks have no problem with others going to hell, but it's never them. Hell is for other people. Quite peculiar :rapture:

 

[Arthur Brain]

That could be a monster thread. A different kind of deservedness per se. Which spell check says isn't a word. However, AB is spot on when he points out that many folks have no problem with others going to hell, but it's never them. Hell is for other people. Quite peculiar :rapture:

"Hell Is For Other People" could certainly be fodder for a thread...

 

[freelight]

The Spirit's Book part 2......

The Spirit's Book part 2......

~*~*~

Continuing from my previous quoting of insights from the Spirit's Book here, a Q &A session on the 'duration of punishments' in the afterlife -

1009. According to that, the penalties imposed on spirits are never eternal?

"Interrogate your common sense, your reason, and ask yourself whether an eternal
condemnation for a few moments of error would not be the negation of the goodness of God ?
What, in fact, is the duration of a human life, even though prolonged to a hundred years, in
comparison with eternity? ETERNITY!Do you rightly comprehend the word? sufferings,
tortures, without end, without hope, for a few faults! Does not your judgement reject such an idea?
That the ancients should have seen, in the Master of the Universe, a terrible,
jealous, vindictive God, is conceivable, for, in their ignorance, they attributed to the Divinity
the passions of men; but such is not the God of the Christians, who places love, charity, pity,
the forgetfulness of offences, in the foremost rank of virtues, and who could not lack the
qualities which He has made it the duty of His creatures to possess. Is it not a contradiction to
attribute to Him infinite love and infinite vengeance? You say that God's justice is infinite,
transcending the limited understanding of mankind; but justice does not exclude kindness,
and God would not be kind if He condemned the greater number of His creatures to horrible
and unending punishment. Could He make it obligatory on His children to be just,
if His own action towards them did not give them the most perfect standard of justice? And is it not the
very sublimity of justice and of kindness to make the duration of punishment to depend on the
efforts of the guilty one to amend, and to mete out the appropriate recompense, both for good
and for evil, 'to each, according to his works'?"

SAINT AUGUSTINE

"Set yourselves, by every means in your power, to combat and to annihilate the idea of eternal
punishment, which is a blasphemy against the justice and goodness of God, and the principal
source of the scepticism, materialism, and indifferentism that have invaded the masses since
their intelligence has begun to be developed. When once a mind has received enlightenment,
in however slight a degree, the monstrous injustice of such an idea is immediately perceived;
reason rejects it, and rarely fails to confound, in the same ostracism, the penalty against which
it revolts and the God to whom that penalty is attributed. Hence the numberless ills which
have burst upon you, and for which we come to bring you a remedy. The task we point out to
you will be all the easier because the defenders of this belief have avoided giving a positive
opinion in regard to it; neither the Councils nor the Fathers of the Church have definitely
settled this weighty question. If Christ, according to the Evangelists and the literal
interpretation of His allegorical utterances, threatens the guilty with a fire that is
unquenchable, there is absolutely nothing in those utterances to prove that they are
condemned to remain in that fire eternally.

"Hapless sheep that have gone astray! behold, advancing towards you, the Good Shepherd who,
so far from intending to drive you for ever from His presence, comes Himself to seek you, that He may lead you back to the
fold! Prodigal children! renounce your voluntary exile, and turn your steps towards the
paternal dwelling! Your Father, with arms already opened to receive you, is waiting to
welcome you back to your home!"

LAMENNAlS

The above are purported to be from these spirit-persons, hence the identification of the source. However, what is to be considered is the message itself. This is what we are driving home in true earnest about this heinous doctrine of 'eternal hellfire'. Next will be messages purported from Plato and Apostle Paul. Again,...please consider and judge the message itself, in honesty, with a clear conscience. In all things do your own investigation, think intelligently, honestly.

 

[Aimiel]

If you don't mind, I would like to see Jesus giving a description of hell. I mean, just to see what you said you saw him give.

You should read your Bible, there's more in It than what you've gotten from skimming It and cherry-picking.

 

[Timotheos]

Obviously. That was my point. But Paul said that because of sin, he was dead - that he was killed.

So obviously the Bible uses the term "death" to speak of something more than just our body dying - which was my point.

The verse you quoted about the wages of sin being death was fulfilled in Paul, as it is in all who sin.



The wages of sin is a spiritual death - that became true the day Adam sinned, just as God said. Adam did eventually die physically as a result of the sin, but that didn't happen the day he ate the fruit.

My sole simple point was that death does not merely mean physical death, as you seemed to imply.

"For the wages of sin is death..." Death does not mean eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever, as you seem to imply, "But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord", Eternal Life is a gift given to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ, not everyone, some in heavenly bliss and all the others in hellish torture, as you seem to imply.

Can you even show me where the Bible says that "death" really means "eternal life in hell being tortured alive"??? That definition is truly bizarre, but if you show me where the Bible says this, I will accept it. I'm expecting you to show me a passage that DOESN'T SAY "death really means eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever", while claiming it does. Either that, or you will run away with a statement like "I've already shown you a verse that says that, but you rejected it." I'm just wondering now, which tactic you will use, since I've been down this road with torturists before.

 

[Mickiel]

You should read your Bible, there's more in It than what you've gotten from skimming It and cherry-picking.

I have used 370 scriptures in this thread, and will use a lot more. You can't pick 370 cherries that were not there to pick. You refused to answer the question , because you can't or you won't. That's one reason I keep count of the bible verses I use, because Christians like using smoke screens to cloud a thread, like accusing me of cherry picking scriptures. 370 scriptures is a lot of scriptures;

goodness, maybe the bible is a cherry book, full of ripe cherries to pick, since there are so many of them there to pick. Cherries ripe with the salvation of all, and the end of the Christian hell.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

"...God is love." 1 John 4:8 "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18.

 

[Mickiel]

The accusation of " Cherry picking" the bible is an interesting one, lets examine it closer. The accuser is being crafty, they are not accusing you of not using scriptures, they just don't like the ones you are using. Or the way in which you are using them. They can't put the scriptures you are using down, so they put you down and attack your personage. I have always felt that if you walk up to an a cherry tree, with intent on eating one, what difference does it make which one you pick to eat? They are all cherries ; each one there for the picking. If they were not there, you could not pick them.

So it is with scripture, its plenty there to pick, if you want to eat. Now, how one digest what they eat, that is a whole different ball game!

In example, I was recently asked how old do I think mankind is? I said I think Primordial man was at least 200,000 years old, perhaps much older. I think humanity, after Adam, is about 50,000 years old, maybe younger or older than that, I am not really sure. I think archaeology has done a decent job of helping us calculate some of this, but what about the scriptures? Just not a lot about this has been revealed, so we must use science and common sense to help understand some of it.

In 1 Corinth. 15:45-47 Adam is called " The First Man." So how do we square this with obvious science? Well there is an answer, in my view, but its an extra ordinary one! I think its obvious that Adam was not the first man God created, we have the bone archaeology of humans far older than Adam was. I think one possible explanation is that Adam was the first man God gave " Consciousness", or the first human with " A Spirit IN him." That spirit was the image of God, that image is consciousness.

But now IF that much is true, then it suggest to me that all Primordial humans did NOT have that spirit of consciousness, only very high instincts! Which indeed, if true, would have been incredible of God; to create a whole race of humans, who were not conscious beings, but more like animals. IF that much is true, it leaves me wondering " Why?" Why did God create Primordial humans? And that I just don't know, but I believe they existed, I am not blind to the science. I have some personal ideas as to why, but its all speculation.

Adam was just different from Primordial humans, because after Adam, its as if humanity took a serious left turn in history, and soon after civilization was born, and I think consciousness was the key to that.

 

[Timotheos]

The accusation of " Cherry picking" the bible is an interesting one, lets examine it closer. The accuser is being crafty, they are not accusing you of not using scriptures, they just don't like the ones you are using. Or the way in which you are using them. They can't put the scriptures you are using down, so they put you down and attack your personage. I have always felt that if you walk up to an a cherry tree, with intent on eating one, what difference does it make which one you pick to eat? They are all cherries ; each one there for the picking. If they were not there, you could not pick them.

So it is with scripture, its plenty there to pick, if you want to eat. Now, how one digest what they eat, that is a whole different ball game!

In example, I was recently asked how old do I think mankind is? I said I think Primordial man was at least 200,000 years old, perhaps much older. I think humanity, after Adam, is about 50,000 years old, maybe younger or older than that, I am not really sure. I think archaeology has done a decent job of helping us calculate some of this, but what about the scriptures? Just not a lot about this has been revealed, so we must use science and common sense to help understand some of it.

In 1 Corinth. 15:45-47 Adam is called " The First Man." So how do we square this with obvious science? Well there is an answer, in my view, but its an extra ordinary one! I think its obvious that Adam was not the first man God created, we have the bone archaeology of humans far older than Adam was. I think one possible explanation is that Adam was the first man God gave " Consciousness", or the first human with " A Spirit IN him." That spirit was the image of God, that image is consciousness.

But now IF that much is true, then it suggest to me that all Primordial humans did NOT have that spirit of consciousness, only very high instincts! Which indeed, if true, would have been incredible of God; to create a whole race of humans, who were not conscious beings, but more like animals. IF that much is true, it leaves me wondering " Why?" Why did God create Primordial humans? And that I just don't know, but I believe they existed, I am not blind to the science. I have some personal ideas as to why, but its all speculation.

Adam was just different from Primordial humans, because after Adam, its as if humanity took a serious left turn in history, and soon after civilization was born, and I think consciousness was the key to that.

The irony of it is that the hell supporters are the worst examples of cherry picking scriptures. They fall back on 4 scriptures which they cherry picked to attempt to prove eternal torture in hell.
Matthew 25:46
Luke 19:19-28
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10

Actually none of these actually say that wicked people will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

And then they completely ignore all of the scriptures from the rest of the Bible that specifically state that the wicked will perish, they will be no more, and they will be destroyed.

It reminds me of Jesus' statement about the speck and the log. Their criticism of us fits them far better.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

The accusation of " Cherry picking" the bible is an interesting one, lets examine it closer. The accuser is being crafty, they are not accusing you of not using scriptures, they just don't like the ones you are using. Or the way in which you are using them. They can't put the scriptures you are using down, so they put you down and attack your personage. I have always felt that if you walk up to an a cherry tree, with intent on eating one, what difference does it make which one you pick to eat? They are all cherries ; each one there for the picking. If they were not there, you could not pick them.

So it is with scripture, its plenty there to pick, if you want to eat. Now, how one digest what they eat, that is a whole different ball game!

In example, I was recently asked how old do I think mankind is? I said I think Primordial man was at least 200,000 years old, perhaps much older. I think humanity, after Adam, is about 50,000 years old, maybe younger or older than that, I am not really sure. I think archaeology has done a decent job of helping us calculate some of this, but what about the scriptures? Just not a lot about this has been revealed, so we must use science and common sense to help understand some of it.

In 1 Corinth. 15:45-47 Adam is called " The First Man." So how do we square this with obvious science? Well there is an answer, in my view, but its an extra ordinary one! I think its obvious that Adam was not the first man God created, we have the bone archaeology of humans far older than Adam was. I think one possible explanation is that Adam was the first man God gave " Consciousness", or the first human with " A Spirit IN him." That spirit was the image of God, that image is consciousness.

But now IF that much is true, then it suggest to me that all Primordial humans did NOT have that spirit of consciousness, only very high instincts! Which indeed, if true, would have been incredible of God; to create a whole race of humans, who were not conscious beings, but more like animals. IF that much is true, it leaves me wondering " Why?" Why did God create Primordial humans? And that I just don't know, but I believe they existed, I am not blind to the science. I have some personal ideas as to why, but its all speculation.

Adam was just different from Primordial humans, because after Adam, its as if humanity took a serious left turn in history, and soon after civilization was born, and I think consciousness was the key to that.

Could Adam represent the state of mankind after biting of the forbidden fruit? The lesson could mean that as we progress from childhood to adulthood, we lose our sense of innocence and we start to feel "naked". Here comes the need for the personality to start hiding. It begins to build walls and defenses against God. I feel the story of Adam and Eve is more symbolic than anything but many people tend to miss such important points. The moral to the story gets lost as we begin to disregard our natural ability to discern the truth for ourselves.

Conditioning from society and the disciplinary process we received when we were children have much to do with this. We are very impressionable when we are young and are easily shaped and molded to become someone of which our parents would be proud. We lose touch with a certain part of ourselves and we go around feeling disconnected. We try to fix the situation with all kinds of crap but nothing works. The feeling of disconnection hovers in the background of our lives and it often catches up to us in the long run. Some people go crazy and commit suicide. Some go bananas and shoot other people and then shoot themselves too. These are the effects of living disconnected from the soul. Some are more drastic than others but most of us are affected to some degree. And we take these effects to be normal. I'm here to say they are not.

The adversary operates so it's difficult to notice anything is wrong. It does not want to cause alarm so it can do its work in secrecy without our conscious awareness. It is very crafty but it's power is weak in comparison to the soul. If we expose it to the light we can see it is born from a sense of deficiency. It is an entity formulated in falsehood. From imitating those around it, it adopts the habit of excluding alternative interpretations of the scriptures at the expense of others that may be more in line with the best and highest good. So the basic meat and potatoes of the scriptures are often overlooked in favor of some other interpretation that will bring a sense of belonging and love from its peers. The personality extracts self-worth from gaining approval of others. There is very little support for those who wish to find out the truth of the scriptures for themselves. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24:13

 

[Apple7]

I have used 370 scriptures in this thread, and will use a lot more. You can't pick 370 cherries that were not there to pick. You refused to answer the question , because you can't or you won't. That's one reason I keep count of the bible verses I use, because Christians like using smoke screens to cloud a thread, like accusing me of cherry picking scriptures. 370 scriptures is a lot of scriptures;

goodness, maybe the bible is a cherry book, full of ripe cherries to pick, since there are so many of them there to pick. Cherries ripe with the salvation of all, and the end of the Christian hell.

And they were all taken from a Trinitarian rendered Bible - of which, you reject.

:think:

 

[Mickiel]

The irony of it is that the hell supporters are the worst examples of cherry picking scriptures. They fall back on 4 scriptures which they cherry picked to attempt to prove eternal torture in hell.
Matthew 25:46
Luke 19:19-28
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10

Actually none of these actually say that wicked people will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

And then they completely ignore all of the scriptures from the rest of the Bible that specifically state that the wicked will perish, they will be no more, and they will be destroyed.

It reminds me of Jesus' statement about the speck and the log. Their criticism of us fits them far better.

I am curious, could you list those scriptures that claim the wicked humans will be destroyed?

 

[Apple7]

"For the wages of sin is death..." Death does not mean eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever, as you seem to imply, "But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord", Eternal Life is a gift given to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ, not everyone, some in heavenly bliss and all the others in hellish torture, as you seem to imply.

Can you even show me where the Bible says that "death" really means "eternal life in hell being tortured alive"??? That definition is truly bizarre, but if you show me where the Bible says this, I will accept it. I'm expecting you to show me a passage that DOESN'T SAY "death really means eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever", while claiming it does. Either that, or you will run away with a statement like "I've already shown you a verse that says that, but you rejected it." I'm just wondering now, which tactic you will use, since I've been down this road with torturists before.

There is only eternal life, for the Righteous, with the Triune God.

There is only eternal death, for the unrighteous, with Satan and his demons.

He who has The Son, has eternal life.

He who does not have The Son, does not have eternal life.


Simple as that...

 

[Mickiel]

The adversary operates so it's difficult to notice anything is wrong. It does not want to cause alarm so it can do its work in secrecy without our conscious awareness. It is very crafty but it's power is weak in comparison to the soul.

In my view , the adversary, satan, is more powerful and wise than any human; there is no comparison. And its way more deceptive than any human, Gen. 3:1; much more crafty and intelligent. In Luke 22:31 Jesus told Simon that satan wanted to " Sift him like wheat!" This being can literally dismantle the human consciousness , as if it were nothing to him; and its not! God is the only thing that stands between him and humanity.

One time God took his walls of protection down from between satan and a human, in Job 1:12. And told satan, do what you want, but don't kill him. satan immediately kills all of Job's servants, except one. He kills all of Job's sheep, steals all of his Camels, he kills all of Jobs children, and puts boils all over Jobs body.

So the devil is a deadly being with great power to destroy, that is why he was created, Isaiah 54:16. And he has deceived this whole planet, Rev. 12:9, and done it in so many ways, that even we cannot see all of the deceptions.

 

[Timotheos]

I am curious, could you list those scriptures that claim the wicked humans will be destroyed?

There are too many to list.

Proverbs 19:11
The house of the wicked will be destroyed.
Psalm 37:20 The wicked will perish.
Psalm 37:10 The wicked will be no more.
Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed.
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins shall die
Matthew 7:13 The road is wide that leads to destruction
2 Peter 2:1 Bringing upon themselves swift destruction
2 Peter 2:3 Their destruction is not asleep
2 Peter 3:7 being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly
Malachi 4:1-3
John 3:16 by implication, if only those who put their faith in Christ will not perish, the others will perish.
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction
Philippians 3:19 whose end is destruction

It is simply impossible to list all of the scriptures that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed. It is unthinkable to reject all of them and claim that the wicked will NOT be destroyed but will remain preserved forever in hell burning alive for all eternity.

I've only scratched the surface of the multitude of verses that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed.

 

[Timotheos]

There is only eternal life, for the Righteous, with the Triune God.

There is only eternal death, for the unrighteous, with Satan and his demons.

He who has The Son, has eternal life.

He who does not have The Son, does not have eternal life.


Simple as that...

Exactly. Eternal Life is Conditional on having the Son. The unrighteous will not have eternal life, they will not be alive forever in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead. They do not have eternal life at all.

 

[Mickiel]

There are too many to list.

Proverbs 19:11
The house of the wicked will be destroyed.
Psalm 37:20 The wicked will perish.
Psalm 37:10 The wicked will be no more.
Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed.
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins shall die
Matthew 7:13 The road is wide that leads to destruction
2 Peter 2:1 Bringing upon themselves swift destruction
2 Peter 2:3 Their destruction is not asleep
2 Peter 3:7 being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly
Malachi 4:1-3
John 3:16 by implication, if only those who put their faith in Christ will not perish, the others will perish.
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction
Philippians 3:19 whose end is destruction

It is simply impossible to list all of the scriptures that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed. It is unthinkable to reject all of them and claim that the wicked will NOT be destroyed but will remain preserved forever in hell burning alive for all eternity.

I've only scratched the surface of the multitude of verses that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed.

Thank you. Okay, just from your list, let me ask you something. Humans have a body and a consciousness, which of those verses show both being killed forever? Mind you, I do not believe in eternal punishing, nor do I believe in eternity of a fleshly body. But neither do I believe in eternal death for a human.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

There is only eternal life, for the Righteous, with the Triune God.

There is only eternal death, for the unrighteous, with Satan and his demons.

He who has The Son, has eternal life.

He who does not have The Son, does not have eternal life.


Simple as that...

And what if this Son is not actually meant to represent a man, but rather the eternal and infinite part of us. What then?

 

[Prizebeatz1]

In my view , the adversary, satan, is more powerful and wise than any human; there is no comparison. And its way more deceptive than any human, Gen. 3:1; much more crafty and intelligent. In Luke 22:31 Jesus told Simon that satan wanted to " Sift him like wheat!" This being can literally dismantle the human consciousness , as if it were nothing to him; and its not! God is the only thing that stands between him and humanity.

One time God took his walls of protection down from between satan and a human, in Job 1:12. And told satan, do what you want, but don't kill him. satan immediately kills all of Job's servants, except one. He kills all of Job's sheep, steals all of his Camels, he kills all of Jobs children, and puts boils all over Jobs body.

So the devil is a deadly being with great power to destroy, that is why he was created, Isaiah 54:16. And he has deceived this whole planet, Rev. 12:9, and done it in so many ways, that even we cannot see all of the deceptions.

I've found the moral of the story is that Satan is the part of us that tricks us into feeling separate from God. I think this is another lesson we tend to overlook in favor of something more convenient. I was too proud to admit that I was actively identifying with the personality and that Satan was actually a part of me. The personality unconsciously tricked me into believing I was separate from God. I find Satan to be symbolic of the personality although this also has to do with a collective consciousness too. But once I knew my true identity I no longer had to feel so attached to the personality. I knew I was one with something much bigger and better. "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house." Matthew 12:29 So it was the soul that broke the bonds and the personality did not unconsciously run my life to such a degree that I was running away from what is eternal and infinite by holding on to beliefs. The personality becomes a slave to something more powerful than itself. "The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Psalm 110:1