Why would God need a hell?

[Aaron the Tall]

Now lets just continue to be reasonable, because we can assume that God is reasonable. What would be the " Worse" punishment for sin? What could be the most intense, most stressful, most hard core punishment possible for sinning against God? Well I think the Christian version of hell, and how they view punishment is the worse possible. Keep the sinner alive and punish them for 32 million years, then go check on them, you know, to make sure they are still alive after all those horrible years of untold misery; then continue the assault on them for another 70 trillion years, then send some angels back to check on them and make any adjustments to their bodies that they need in order to substain them for another 45 billion years of this so called " Just punishment', go back and make sure none of them have escaped or passed out and are unconscious, then prep them for yet another 999,756,872 trillion more years, and keep repeating this vicious cycle for all of eternity!

I am frightened of the Christian mind because in their consciousness, their reasonable mind, they actually view this insanity as just. And one reason WHY this whole world is deceived, is BECAUSE Christianity, with its merciless mindset, is the number one religion on earth, and they hold the power to broadcast this message of misery to everyone; thus molding an awful view of God to this world.

Christianity is the epitome of true mercy - because we all deserve the worst punishment for sin - but God in His mercy provided a way to free us from the penalty.

Mercy is only mercy in the light of just punishment.

I am curious, before Jesus died to pay for sins, do you think people experienced any sort of punishment for sins besides physical death? Or do you think God still changed the nature of sinners and forgave them when they died? And if God did so, why did Jesus have to die?

Sorry for a ton of questions - just want to know your full position.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Then let's take a look at your 'logic' in the following:



If God is love, and given the biblical definition of love, then how would such 'create' a place or realm of suffering from the outset if that's (presumably) what you believe hell to be? A god of hate and sadism couldn't do any worse than many a traditional take on 'hell' and yet a loving one creates such a 'place? You don't see any dichotomy or disconnect with that, at all?

You're a fallible human being right, like the rest of us? You've screwed up in life like the rest of us, been selfish at points, lied, who knows what else right? So for the sake of consistency you must also deserve this horrific fate that you deem absolutely necessary for others and yet you don't believe you'll partake of it. Why? Because you yourself have done something that those in your version of hell weren't astute enough to do?

Where is either love or logic part of your argument here?

There is no dichotomy between love and just punishment. You must at least admit that - even if you don't personally think hell is just punishment.

If a judge let the worst killer/rapist go free without any penalty, you wouldn't consider the judge loving and good - you would consider the judge corrupt. The just judge doesn't "hate" the killer when he enforces justice.

What do you personally believe is a just punishment for rejecting God?

If rejecting God is presumably the worst possible thing anyone could ever do, there must be a punishment that fits the crime - or God would not be a good God.

If God created hell, I presume the reason is because it is the only just punishment that fits the worst crime we could commit. If hell is the only possible just punishment for rejecting God - then God, like the just judge - doesn't "hate" by sending the sinner there.

The real question is whether or not hell is an appropriate punishment.

I don't think hell is a place of burning and torture - I think it is a place of separation from God. Do you think separation from God is an appropriate punishment for those that reject Him?

 

[Timotheos]

You didn't answer the question.

:yawn: Proof please. each: Eph 4:14

Man was made eternal with the Holy Spirit (Ge 2:7).

Proof?
The question was “What do you think Genesis 2:17 says?”
Your response was

Ro 5:15

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not [John 1:5].

"That word “comprehend” is an unfortunate translation. And a wiseacre did not help it by rendering it, “and the darkness was not able to put it out.” That is no translation at all. The word in the Greek is katelaben, meaning actually “to take down.” It is the picture of a secretary to whom the boss is giving dictation, and she stops and says, “I can’t take that down. I am not able to take it down.” The light shines in darkness and the darkness is not able to take it in. That is it exactly. Someone said to him, “Boy, was I in darkness before I received Christ! And I don’t know why I didn’t see.” Well, that is it: you were in darkness and you did not see. The darkness just cannot take it in.

Now this is something quite interesting, and it is not true of physical light. You go into a dark room, and the minute you switch on the light, the darkness leaves, it disappears. Darkness and light cannot exist together physically. The moment you bring light in, darkness is gone. The minute light is taken out, darkness will come right back in. But spiritual light and darkness exist together. Sometimes there is a husband who is saved and a wife who is unsaved—or vice versa. Here is a believer working next to another man who says, “What do you mean when you talk about being a Christian? I do the best I can. Am I not a Christian?” There you have light and darkness side by side and the darkness just cannot take it in. That is exactly what is said here, “The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”" McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Gospels (John 1-10) (electronic ed., Vol. 38, pp. 28–29). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

This did not answer the question “What do you think Genesis 2:17 says?”
Proof enough for you?

 

[Timotheos]

If by "death" Romans means physical death, or even the cessation of existence, then how exactly did Paul write Romans as a corpse?

Paul says in Romans 7:9-13 that because of sin, he died - that sin killed him - that sin caused his death.

Obviously, Paul uses "death" to describe a spiritual condition - not simply the cessation of all bodily function.

If "death" always simply meant physical death, than we must be alarmed that God did not tell the truth when He said Adam and Even would "surely die" the very day they eat from the wrong tree.

The wages of sin is death - which is a spiritual condition.

If the wages of sin is simply the cessation of all bodily function, we would all pay these wages once we breathe our last breath - and then we should all go to heaven, having fulfilled the cost of what we owed God.

And I don't believe people will be "tortured" in hell. The Bible calls hell a place of torment, not torture. Ask me if you are curious about what I think the difference is.

You are confused. Paul did not write Romans as a corpse.
You said you don't believe people will be tortured in hell. That's good, I don't believe God will torture dead people in hell either. But I don't think you and I agree. I think that somehow you think that being burned alive for billions of years is actually "torture". I disagree.

What else. God did not lie to Adam when He said he would die if he ate the fruit. Adam did die. Read Genesis 5:5. However, if you believe that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell (I call it as I see it) then God lied to Adam when he said that he would die as a result of eating the fruit. If you are correct, then you believe that God lied to Adam.

Your post is too full of misinformation for me to comment on all of it.
You are very confused. Why don't you just accept what the Bible says instead of all of this weird stuff you are saying?

 

[serpentdove]

[Summary] "Proof? The question was “What do you think Genesis 2:17 says?” Your response was ...Proof enough for you?

:yawn: Let the reader decide (Eph 4:14). each:

It would take a woman who believed (Ge 3:6, 15, Mk 9:23, Lk 1:38).

 

[serpentdove]

Fear is probably the "greatest" manipulation device there is.

Man's heart can overcome fear (Jer 17:9, Jn 3:19).

 

[serpentdove]

[Hell] "This shows an awful view of God, that he could not come up with anything better...

He gives men what they want (Matt. 8:12). Keep telling God he's doing it wrong. See how that works out for you. :juggle: Lk 1:19-20

 

[Mickiel]

I am curious what verses you would use to suggest God has a post-death reformation program.

What is the point of all the warnings of Christ and others of rejecting the gospel if it doesn't really matter what we believe or how we act if we will all end up in heaven in the end?

When does God ever "kill" the physical body? Or do you simply mean that just punishment for sin is to allow man's body to wear out and die instead of living forever without dying?

If physical death is the punishment for sin, why does the Christian who has believed in Jesus and accepted salvation still die?

Well I would " All" of these verses, and notice the continual use of the term " All", which includes all the dead of humanity;

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/DoYouBelieve.html

I think God most definitely will kill the human body after they are resurrected, and give them a new body, which is the new birth. It is once appointed for every human to die, flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, its a spirit kingdom. Flesh is just temporary physical chemical existence. We all were born to be born again.

 

[Mickiel]

Christianity is the epitome of true mercy - because we all deserve the worst punishment for sin - but God in His mercy provided a way to free us from the penalty.

Mercy is only mercy in the light of just punishment.

I am curious, before Jesus died to pay for sins, do you think people experienced any sort of punishment for sins besides physical death? Or do you think God still changed the nature of sinners and forgave them when they died? And if God did so, why did Jesus have to die?

Sorry for a ton of questions - just want to know your full position.

I think sin is a natural punishing within itself, before Jesus death, it was no different then, than it is now; sin punishes humanity everyday. Jesus had to die because God wrote the book on humanity long before he created us. Look in Rev. 4th chapter. God had already decided to create humans in sin and flesh, that's the way he planned it all, and God is a predestined planner , and Jesus was chosen to pay for humanities sins before the world was. So the forgiveness of our sins was determined before we were even created.

 

[serpentdove]

Why should we pay attention to the Christian hell...

"You are free to choose but you are not free to choose the consequences of that choice." ~ Adrian Rogers

 

[serpentdove]

For the Christian eternal hell to be true, the thief on the cross next to Christ who got given the Kingdom, has to be revoked...

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise [Luke 23:42–43].

"That very day this thief who was not fit to live on earth, according to the Roman government, went to be with the Lord. This man was a bad thief, not a good one, but because of his faith in the Son of God he became a saved thief. This man had faith to believe that the Lord Jesus was coming into a kingdom, and it would come after His death! Obviously, this thief had come a long way theologically while hanging on that cross.

Our Lord made the remarkable statement that this thief would be in paradise with Him that very day. These two thieves had been arrested for the same crime, tried for the same crime, condemned for the same crime, and were dying for the same crime. What was the difference between them? There wasn’t any—both were thieves. The difference lies in the fact that one thief believed in Jesus Christ and one did not...” He went into the presence of God because of His faith in Christ." McGee, J. V. (1997). Thru the Bible commentary (electronic ed., Vol. 4, p. 354). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

 

[serpentdove]

Why would God " Need" a hell? I think its a thing we humans must be careful with when we start discussing something that we think " God needs." Its really an oxymoron. Why would God have needs? ...

God will be near holy ones not filth (Ps. 16:10, Is. 11:4, 5, Eph. 4:24).

 

[serpentdove]

God did not set up hell, there are no scriptures that describe God setting up the Christian hell...

Hell was prepared for: the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41), the wicked (Rev. 21:8), the disobedient (Rom. 2:8, 9), fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4), the beast and the false prophet (Rev. 19:20), worshipers of the beast (Rev. 14:11) and rejectors of the Gospel (Matt. 10:15). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 283). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

 

[serpentdove]

what is growing in the Grace of Christ?

Jud 4

 

[serpentdove]

You know, I wonder if after 500 trillion years of the Christian eternal hell suffering has elapsed, if they would allow angels to give the poor human super sufferers a clean bath in water...

2 Pe 2:22

You are not more just than God. :freak: He is perfectly just (Deut. 32:4) and perfectly good (Ps. 145:9).

 

[Mickiel]

As Christianity continues its assault on the salvation of all, they simply don't have the power to create an eternal hell punishing place, although they have the will. They may want a hell, but its simply not in God's plans for all. Again we can key in on the incredible heart of God actually providing for all humans with salvation, including those who hate and reject him. In Rev. 5:13 John is actually shown the great day of salvation, : "And EVERY creature which is in heaven and on the earth, and UNDER the earth, ( so this includes all dead humans!), and such as are in the sea and all of them, ( even humans who drowned), I heard them saying, " Blessing and Honor and Glory and Power, be to him that sits on the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever!" Here we have a great resurrection " To Life', and EVERYONE is worshipping God, and it says they will do this for ever and ever! Every human here is submitting to God and giving him honor and glory, obvious signs of total conversion! Now Christianity must fight this total conversion of humanity, because it does not correspond with their teachings and doctrines, which, they know, would render their religion null and void.

Here in verse 13, all the humans are doing the SAME thing all the angels are doing in verse 11-12 ; worshipping God! John even gives a " Number of the Angels" that he saw, one of the few places in scripture that keys us in on how many angels there may be; 10,000, times 10,000 and thousands of thousands! That's a lot of angels.

 

[serpentdove]

" The Lord is Good TO ALL." That goodness eliminates all the horrible things that many believers in God are trying to dish out to the future of unbelievers who have fallen.

“No hell, no dignity.” ~ Flannery O’Connor Ga 6:7

 

[serpentdove]

[Hell] "...ts simply not in God's plans for all."

If God is not just, God is not good. Deut. 32:4

 

[serpentdove]

Man made religion needs a hell and tithing people dim enough to believe it.

:yawn: No one wants your money, antichrist (2 Cor 9:7).

As a reminder Caino is number 38 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

 

[Mickiel]

Notice yet again the hope in scripture for the ungodly, in Psalms 1:6, " For the Lord KNOWS the " Way" of the righteous; but " The Way" of the ungodly shall perish!" The ungodly themselves are not destined to perish, but " The Way" of ungodliness will no longer exist. That way of life will perish; this again is good news for the ungodly.