Why would God need a hell?

[Mickiel]

What do you personally think is an appropriate punishment for sinning against God?

I think the most appropriate punishment for sin is for God to kill the physical body, change the nature of the sinner and forgive them, and give them a new birth and a new body and life with him forever.

And I think scripture continually shows that is what he will do, BECAUSE its how God is.

 

[Mickiel]

That just sounds to me like emotional appeal. God is love, and hell is the opposite of love, so God and hell can't coexist... It sounds emotionally convincing, but I don't think it is true.

Is there justice in love?

What do you personally think is an appropriate punishment for sinning against God?

Now lets just continue to be reasonable, because we can assume that God is reasonable. What would be the " Worse" punishment for sin? What could be the most intense, most stressful, most hard core punishment possible for sinning against God? Well I think the Christian version of hell, and how they view punishment is the worse possible. Keep the sinner alive and punish them for 32 million years, then go check on them, you know, to make sure they are still alive after all those horrible years of untold misery; then continue the assault on them for another 70 trillion years, then send some angels back to check on them and make any adjustments to their bodies that they need in order to substain them for another 45 billion years of this so called " Just punishment', go back and make sure none of them have escaped or passed out and are unconscious, then prep them for yet another 999,756,872 trillion more years, and keep repeating this vicious cycle for all of eternity!

I am frightened of the Christian mind because in their consciousness, their reasonable mind, they actually view this insanity as just. And one reason WHY this whole world is deceived, is BECAUSE Christianity, with its merciless mindset, is the number one religion on earth, and they hold the power to broadcast this message of misery to everyone; thus molding an awful view of God to this world.

 

[Mickiel]

You know, I wonder if after 500 trillion years of the Christian eternal hell suffering has elapsed, if they would allow angels to give the poor human super sufferers a clean bath in water, before they begin the next 500 trillion years of constant punishing? I mean, we could take a vote in heaven and make an appeal to God for there to be better sanitation in hell. Don't you think one bath every 500 trillion years is reasonable?

 

[serpentdove]

You didn't answer the question.

:yawn: Proof please. each: Eph 4:14

Man was made eternal with the Holy Spirit (Ge 2:7).

 

[Mickiel]

If you want to know the future of the whole world, you can't look to Christian doctrine, they are preaching hell and separation of unbelievers from the Kingdom; you must look to the word of God. Psalms 22:27, " ALL the ends of the world shall remember and TURN unto the Lord! And ALL the kindreds of the Nations SHALL worship before thee!" All of humanity will turn to God, ( they have to " Turn" because before this ALL were NOT worshipping God), but God will turn every knee to him and force them to him, Rev. 6:17. Isaiah 45:23.

Christians are teaching that God will not force humans to him against their will; and that is utter nonsense! Just look at Revelations the 8th chapter; in vs. 7 fire and hail mixed with blood was poured out on all the earth, one third of ALL trees were destroyed, and ALL the grass was destroyed! In vs. 8 one third of the seas was turned into blood, in vs.9 one third of all fish was destroyed, and one third of all ships on the waters at that time are destroyed! In vs. 11 another third of the water on earth is infected with wormwood, and many humans are killed from that. In 9:5 Locust are sent to torment humans for 5 months straight! In verse 18 one third of all humans are killed on earth. There are over 7 billion people on earth now, so were talking roughly two and a half billion humans are to be killed!

When God gets through doing these things, humanity will flock to him in abject fear and repentance! And those things are not even the half of it.

 

[patrick jane]

You know, I wonder if after 500 trillion years of the Christian eternal hell suffering has elapsed, if they would allow angels to give the poor human super sufferers a clean bath in water, before they begin the next 500 trillion years of constant punishing? I mean, we could take a vote in heaven and make an appeal to God for there to be better sanitation in hell. Don't you think one bath every 500 trillion years is reasonable?

no. no water in hell. no soap either

 

[patrick jane]

You know, I wonder if after 500 trillion years of the Christian eternal hell suffering has elapsed, if they would allow angels to give the poor human super sufferers a clean bath in water, before they begin the next 500 trillion years of constant punishing? I mean, we could take a vote in heaven and make an appeal to God for there to be better sanitation in hell. Don't you think one bath every 500 trillion years is reasonable?

You sound worried about hell and eternal suffering. If you believe, you don't have to ponder the worst. Are you feeling extremely guilty and ashamed of all your sins ? Repent !!

 

[Caino]

Man made religion needs a hell and tithing people dim enough to believe it.

 

[Mickiel]

no. no water in hell. no soap either

So you would not even give them a bath break; good grief. Let me ask you, would you let them sit down every 10,000 years for an hour, or must they stand up for all eternity?

Would you feed them once every 90,000 years, or are their stomachs to be removed so they will never get hungry?

Will there be haircuts allowed every 78,000 years or so, or will hell be a groom less place?

What about bowel movements in hell, will we let them go to the bathroom at least once every million or so years, or will God have their bowels removed, so as not to be bothered?

 

[Mickiel]

You sound worried about hell and eternal suffering. If you believe, you don't have to ponder the worst. Are you feeling extremely guilty and ashamed of all your sins ? Repent !!

Oh I will be fine, Christianity cannot touch my salvation, my worries are the people of the world who are the audience of this world's number one religion, Christianity reaches millions of people every day with their hell message; although I know that Christians cannot remove a human's name from the book of life, most of those unsuspecting humans don't know it, and Christianity is beating this world over the head with their cruel doctrines. So I feel sorry for the world, that right now they have to listen to this stuff.

I think even some Christians get tired of having to hear their ministers harp on hell so much, because I think there are a whole lot of good hearted Christians who really don't like the idea of eternal hell punishing, but they can do nothing about it, or they risk getting put out of their church.

 

[Mickiel]

Man made religion needs a hell and tithing people dim enough to believe it.

Tithing is yet just another way that Christianity has duped this world, using the bible like they do. The original church did not even Tithe. Tithing did not become a widespread practice until the 8th century, the tithe was taken from the 10 percent rent charge used in the Roman Empire and later justified by twisting old testament scriptures.

The tithe in Malachi 3:10 was designed as a way to feed the priest, and it was a tithe of food, never money.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Man made religion needs a hell and tithing people dim enough to believe it.

Let's face it. The concept of hell is very profitable.

 

[Mickiel]

Let's face it. The concept of hell is very profitable.

Oh yes, and even the churches of God have been affected by the love of money and profit. In Revelations 3:17, the final deceptive stage of a church of God called " Laodiceans", their condition is being described by Christ himself in vs. 15-17, " I know your works, ( so they were " Working", or doing what they thought was service to God), that are neither hot or cold, I would that they were cold or hot, so because they are luke warm, neither hot or cold, I will spit you out of my mouth, ( or he totally rejects what they thought was good works), Because you think, I am rich and " Increased with goods", ( right there is the prosperity ministries which now are preaching increase!), and have need of nothing, and " Knowest Not that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked."

Here Jesus is describing this stage of HIS church as wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked! A railing accusation and an insight as to just how deceived a church of God can become, and yet they don't even realize it! In verse 20, notice " The Position " of Christ as he confronts his church, " Behold I stand at the door and knock!" He is on the " Outside", he is NOT " In" this church, this final stage of his deceived church! Jesus said, " They knoweth not" the true condition they are in. Like a pied piper, satan is leading this church into what they think is " Increase", they are swayed by this alluring message of profit!

All 7 of these churches in Revelations 2nd through 3rd chapters, are churches of God! And Jesus has things " Against most of them!" In 2:15 Jesus actually said they have " Doctrines that he HATES!" Imagine that, a church of God teaching doctrines that Jesus hates!

And I certainly believe the doctrine of eternal hell punishing is one of them.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Trying to justify is one thing....

Laying out a logical argument, as I have, is another.

Then let's take a look at your 'logic' in the following:

That just sounds to me like emotional appeal. God is love, and hell is the opposite of love, so God and hell can't coexist... It sounds emotionally convincing, but I don't think it is true.

Is there justice in love?

What do you personally think is an appropriate punishment for sinning against God?

If God is love, and given the biblical definition of love, then how would such 'create' a place or realm of suffering from the outset if that's (presumably) what you believe hell to be? A god of hate and sadism couldn't do any worse than many a traditional take on 'hell' and yet a loving one creates such a 'place? You don't see any dichotomy or disconnect with that, at all?

You're a fallible human being right, like the rest of us? You've screwed up in life like the rest of us, been selfish at points, lied, who knows what else right? So for the sake of consistency you must also deserve this horrific fate that you deem absolutely necessary for others and yet you don't believe you'll partake of it. Why? Because you yourself have done something that those in your version of hell weren't astute enough to do?

Where is either love or logic part of your argument here?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Let's face it. The concept of hell is very profitable.

Fear is probably the "greatest" manipulation device there is.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell? For those humans who have fallen maybe? Again if you dare to search the scriptures for the life of the fallen, you will find it! But you have to have a personal mentality of believing that you will find that kind of life for the fallen in the bible; or satan will just plant a " Blind Spot" in you concerning the salvation of others. Crippling doctrines of limited salvation will only take root in you IF you personally believe them.

In Psalms 145:14, " The Lord upholds ALL that fall, and raise's up ALL those that be bowed down!"

You always hear Christianity talking about, " The Fall of Man", there was no fall of man, Adam was " Thrown out of Eden", he did not fall out of it. Humanity was forced to be in the condition it has always been in, and that force purposely created " The NEED for Christ to come", the events in Eden were predetermined to cause the need for Jesus to come to earth and handle our salvation.

God is upholding all of humanities salvation in his hands, in Ps. 145:9, " The Lord is Good TO ALL." That goodness eliminates all the horrible things that many believers in God are trying to dish out to the future of unbelievers who have fallen.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Needs a bit of historical perspective to appreciate. The Titanic was thought 'unsinkable' but they also knew not to run it up against an ice berg. But for getting lost in historical details, my analogy was supposed to elicit how far culpability goes. It doesn't go as far as this, even in the real world, so it is odd that it goes this far against God.

Well that's the point. Nobody knew the Titanic was unsinkable and extolling it as such would be fabrication. They likely knew that colliding with a large iceberg would result in major damage at least but as far as the example goes: They didn't design the ship or plan in such a way that it would actually be sunk - unlike what happens with 'hell', where it's 'designed' and inevitable.

Another example: Let's say you buy all car manufacturers next year.
You know that a certain percentage of the vehicles you produce will end up in fatalities.

Question: Why are manufacturers, for the most part, never sued? Didn't they play the numbers game? Aren't they 'culpable' for the percentages?

The answer is "no" because they have fulfilled their part against liability.
God, more so, cannot be liable either, despite a cursory first impression, and we, being at fault, cannot bring the charge anyway.

They aren't sued because everyone knows that with such comes risks, no matter how seemingly small overall. Car manufacturers aren't liable for irresponsible driving, freaks of nature or the laws of physics. The difference is that car manufacturers are designing a product to operate within safety standards and can only be sued if said product doesn't match up to to stringent guidelines on the vehicle. That's all any manufacturer can do, even with something as innocuous as a paper napkin. People, however, didn't design the world or inevitability or parameters, they can merely try to operate within them so in some senses I don't really see the equivalence with this and 'hell'.

You are thinking "democracy" however. I'm fairly certain we are powerless and completely at the mercy of God.

No, I wasn't, and I'd already agreed that with an almighty God we'd each be at the mercy of such no matter what.

"Wanting to know more." You certainly 'can' be considered a hero in this scenario.

Fair point Lon, I should have fleshed it out a bit more. In my initial example it was from the perspective of having no altruistic motives towards the child but now I'm thinking let's take it a step further. Supposing I do have method and there's a reason why I inject your child with a fatal disease. It needs to be done for the sake of many in a community as it could be the only possible test for the antidote. It won't work for all if it succeeds and it may still kill the child in the process - but it's the only feasible way at hand, so I do it. Regardless of whether it works or not am I a hero, villain or someone just trying to do what's best within limited means, or something else?

Now, I used the above scenario deliberately this time around and taking into account your belief so please think before answering.

If God were talking to you on a daily basis, I might agree. Because your information is as limited as mine, I disagree.

So we're both limited, that much already agreed...

That's a fair point, BUT when it seems to traverse doctrinal boundaries, that we then all share. On this, we tend to all be in the same boat. Simply 'denying' hell seems like 'denial' rather than good doctrine to me. I have to first be 'biblical.' Either there is something outside of myself that is objective, or we are all subjective and this discussion wouldn't matter anyway. I believe Christ's injection in our History, as well as those scriptures, are God's objective grounding. The wise man built his house upon the rock (objective). The foolish man built his house upon the sand (subjective, relative truth).

For a lot of people Calvinism traverses doctrinal boundaries etc so hey, even on here. So?

 

[freelight]

Love is the law, inspiring the law of progress.......

Love is the law, inspiring the law of progress.......

~*~*~

Hi all,

Sharing some statements (via Q & A) from The Spirit's Book, from higher spirits about duration of punishments for wrongdoing, the efficacy of repentance, and the law of progress for all spirits. This will expand the context here more touching on some essential points and principles. Note these are questions posed to higher level spirits who gave the answer thru human mediums and were compiled together to form the volume.

Just a few snippets first -

1003. Is the duration of the sufferings of the guilty, in the future life, arbitrary or subordinate
to a law?

"God never acts from caprice; everything in the universe is ruled by laws which reveal His
wisdom and His goodness."

1004. What decides the duration of the sufferings of the guilty?

"The length of time required for his amelioration. A spirit's state of suffering or of happiness
being proportioned to the degree of his purification, the duration of his sufferings, as well as
their nature, depends on the time it takes him to become better. In proportion as he
progresses, and his sentiments become purified, his sufferings diminish and change their
nature."

1006. Could a spirit suffer eternally?

"Undoubtedly, if he remained eternally wicked; that is to say, if he were never to repent nor to
amend, he would suffer eternally. But God has not created beings to let them remain for ever
a prey to evil; He created them only in a state of simplicity and ignorance, and all of them
must progress, in a longer or shorter time, according to the action of their will. The
determination to advance may be awakened more or less tardily, as the development of
children is more or less precocious; but it will he stimulated, sooner or later, by the
irresistible desire of the spirit himself to escape from his state of inferiority, and to be happy.
The law which regulates the duration of a spirit's sufferings is, therefore, eminently wise and
beneficent, since it makes that duration to depend on his own efforts; he is never deprived of
his free-will, but, if he makes a bad use of it, he will have to bear the consequences of his
errors."

1007. Are there spirits who never repent?

"There are some whose repentance is delayed for a very long time; but to suppose that they
will never improve would be to deny the law of progress, and to assert that the child will
never become a man."

1008. Does the duration of a spirit's punishment always depend on his own will, and is it
ever imposed on him for a given time?

"Yes; punishment may be imposed on him for a fixed time, but God, who wills only the good
of His creatures, always welcomes his repentance, and the desire to amend never remains
sterile."

 

[Aaron the Tall]

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23.
Therefore the price of sinning against God is death. We measure justice in terms of what God says the wages of sin is, not man. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, if a person sins against God, their life is required. The wages of sin is death, according to God. They are not required to be tortured forever in hell, the wages of sin is death. This is according to God, not man. Therefore death is the only legitimate and just form of punishment, according to God. "Eternal Hell" is not the legitimate or just punishment, because God says that the wages of sin is death, not "Eternal Hell". If a person punches a dog, it is a sign of deep seated sin in that person. They do not deserve a lesser punishment than the person who punches his neighbor. The sin is the same and the sinner is the same, regardless of who is punched. There are not BIG sins and LITTLE sins. There is a heart attitude of sin which rejects God, and these sins are signs of that. It is that heart attitude which rejects God which causes a person to reject God's gift of eternal life. It is not God's will that any perish, but all come to repentance. Sadly, some will not come to repentance and they will perish. But they will not be tortured alive forever in Hell, because according to God, that would not be just punishment for sin. According to God, the just punishment for sin is death. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

If by "death" Romans means physical death, or even the cessation of existence, then how exactly did Paul write Romans as a corpse?

Paul says in Romans 7:9-13 that because of sin, he died - that sin killed him - that sin caused his death.

Obviously, Paul uses "death" to describe a spiritual condition - not simply the cessation of all bodily function.

If "death" always simply meant physical death, than we must be alarmed that God did not tell the truth when He said Adam and Even would "surely die" the very day they eat from the wrong tree.

The wages of sin is death - which is a spiritual condition.

If the wages of sin is simply the cessation of all bodily function, we would all pay these wages once we breathe our last breath - and then we should all go to heaven, having fulfilled the cost of what we owed God.

And I don't believe people will be "tortured" in hell. The Bible calls hell a place of torment, not torture. Ask me if you are curious about what I think the difference is.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

I think the most appropriate punishment for sin is for God to kill the physical body, change the nature of the sinner and forgive them, and give them a new birth and a new body and life with him forever.

And I think scripture continually shows that is what he will do, BECAUSE its how God is.

I am curious what verses you would use to suggest God has a post-death reformation program.

What is the point of all the warnings of Christ and others of rejecting the gospel if it doesn't really matter what we believe or how we act if we will all end up in heaven in the end?

When does God ever "kill" the physical body? Or do you simply mean that just punishment for sin is to allow man's body to wear out and die instead of living forever without dying?

If physical death is the punishment for sin, why does the Christian who has believed in Jesus and accepted salvation still die?