The ones that God had chosen are Israel. He chose them because Abraham obeyed and offered up his son. Gentiles are now made whole, through the cross. Whosoever calls his name shall be saved.
"WHOSOEVER That Calls Upon the Name of the Lord Shall be Saved" Romans 10:13
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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The ones that God had chosen are Israel. He chose them because Abraham obeyed and offered up his son. Gentiles are now made whole, through the cross. Whosoever calls his name shall be saved.
Still outside the faith......:nono:
God desires all men to be saved. But people like granite and rusha would rather shake their fist at him. Even so, if granite changed his mind, The Lord Jesus Christ would confess his name in heaven with all the other saints.
Incomplete. Acknowledge your perversion, you pervert.
John 12
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
Your only play left is to do as the "pentcostals" do and say that doesn't mean what it says.
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God Has No Unfulfilled Desires
God Has No Unfulfilled Desires
AMR
God Has No Unfulfilled Desires
God has no unfulfilled desires, else He is impotent, subject to the whims of His fallen creatures as He apparently wrings His hands and pines away for them to "choose wisely". Rather, each and every one of those God has chosen unto salvation will, by normally the ordinary means, be brought into His kingdom.
AMR
You Calvinist are always in conflict with God's word.
"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.
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"All men" Verses Usual Suspects Appealed to for Indefinite Atonment
"All men" Verses Usual Suspects Appealed to for Indefinite Atonment
No doubt when I provide the correct answer for this verse, you will hop to another. So, to save time let's look at the usual suspects you appeal to for your indefinite atonement error.
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all” ( Rom. 11:32 )
Romans 11:32 refers to the rejection and the restoration or repentance of the Jewish nation.
“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life” ( Rom. 5:18 )
Romans 5:18 speaks of all those who are in Christ, who will be the recipients of justification unto life.
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” ( 1 Cor. 15:22 )
1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of all who will be made alive in Christ.
“And that He died for all . . .” ( 2 Cor. 5:15 )
2 Corinthians 5:15 makes mention of all believers who have died to sin and are partakers of spiritual life.
“Who will have all men to be saved.. . . Who gave Himself a ransom for all . . .”( 1 Tim. 2:4,6 )
In 1 Timothy 2:4–6 , the reference is to all sorts of men, which is evident in 1 Tim 2:2 —all sorts of men rather than all men will come to the knowledge of the truth. One antecedent to "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4 is the "all men" in 1 Tim 2:1, which plainly interpreted means "all kinds of men," as 1 Tim 2:2 elaborates by example: kings and all those in authority. So, one qualifier of "all" is already explicit in the text. With that in mind, it should be clear that the express "will of God" in 1 Tim 2:4 is a general, and not his specific electing-will-unto-salvation, which would be the case if this text were concerned to teach on election. Actually, the text is teaching the definiteness of Our Lord's atonement.
What does ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων (1 Tim 2:6) mean? Who are the "all" that are ransomed? Is it "people" in general (the standalone adjective takes the force of an unstated noun)? Well it is certainly "all" something. Could there be a more precise referent for "all?" Actually, it is the word "ransom" that should supply the referent for "all" in this case. It is a full and complete ransom, and those for whom it is paid out will surely see the benefit of it.
How, indeed, could it be a ransom for those who are never ransomed by it? Yes, some interpreters do, in fact, teach that God has paid a great ransom; cancelling the debt of every last sinner in the whole world. One wonders does that include the betrayal by Judas, the "son of perdition"? Ultimately and sadly, this view leads to the Arminian-like conclusion that the destiny of the ungodly is finally their "choice," rather than the judicial fiat of God, John 3:18. Did God release every last sinner from their condemnation, and yet they've chosen to remain estranged from His yearning heart? Since He is God, His must be in eternally unfulfilled yearning! Clearly this is a blasphemous conclusion, but necessitated by the erroneous view that God has ransomed the damned. And, it makes some great portion of Christ's shed blood unavailing, not securing the release of some assumed ransomed souls.
For consistency's sake, therefore, we must understand that "all" (1 Tim 2:6) is defined by those who are ransomed; and not "those who are ransomed" being defined by the "all" word which gets extended in the error to every human being besides the Savior himself.
Also it is a text about men at prayer; men who do not know the secret things of God, but who do know that God has a general love for his creation and for man as his image bearer, which is expressed elsewhere in similar fashion. For instance, John 3:16. And men should go to prayer, in general terms (and for specific souls); knowing that God has not revealed any specific exclusions regarding his offer of mercy. Whatever God has decreed shall certainly come to pass and whatever does not occur is not according to the will of God’s decree. Thus, all men are not saved, but only those in whose stead Christ has been given as a ransom.
“. . . not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” ( 2 Pet. 3:9 ).
2 Peter 3:9 refers to the elect who will come to repentance and who must first be gathered in before the world perishes. It also makes mention of the command and the declaration of the gospel which commands everyone who hears it to repent, speaking of both God’s pleasure and displeasure relative to repentance or the lack of it.As demonstrated, there simply is no Scripture you can appeal to in support of indefinite atonement. Our Lord says that His blood is poured out for “many,” not for “all” (Matthew 26:28). Robert, was Jesus in error when He said "many" and not "all"? I think not. Rather, Our Lord's atonement was definite, not indefinite; that is, the atonement was for a known, specific amount of persons (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9) that no man can number from among the peoples of the world (Rev. 7:9).
Robert, as is my usual custom, I have provided you with a thorough answer that will likely be met with a short wave-off, as is your usual custom. I pray that my assumption is proven wrong. :AMR:
AMR
"All men" Verses Usual Suspects Appealed to for Indefinite Atonment
The word “all” does not refer to all men who have existed, do exist, and will exist, but rather to all those who are under discussion in each individual text. You want to proof-text your view with no support from the context of the proof-texting you are attempting.
No doubt when I provide the correct answer for this verse, you will hop to another. So, to save time let's look at the usual suspects you appeal to for your indefinite atonement error.
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all” ( Rom. 11:32 )
Romans 11:32 refers to the rejection and the restoration or repentance of the Jewish nation.
“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life” ( Rom. 5:18 )
Romans 5:18 speaks of all those who are in Christ, who will be the recipients of justification unto life.
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” ( 1 Cor. 15:22 )
1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of all who will be made alive in Christ.
“And that He died for all . . .” ( 2 Cor. 5:15 )
2 Corinthians 5:15 makes mention of all believers who have died to sin and are partakers of spiritual life.
“Who will have all men to be saved.. . . Who gave Himself a ransom for all . . .”( 1 Tim. 2:4,6 )
In 1 Timothy 2:4–6 , the reference is to all sorts of men, which is evident in 1 Tim 2:2 —all sorts of men rather than all men will come to the knowledge of the truth. One antecedent to "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4 is the "all men" in 1 Tim 2:1, which plainly interpreted means "all kinds of men," as 1 Tim 2:2 elaborates by example: kings and all those in authority. So, one qualifier of "all" is already explicit in the text. With that in mind, it should be clear that the express "will of God" in 1 Tim 2:4 is a general, and not his specific electing-will-unto-salvation, which would be the case if this text were concerned to teach on election. Actually, the text is teaching the definiteness of Our Lord's atonement.
What does ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων (1 Tim 2:6) mean? Who are the "all" that are ransomed? Is it "people" in general (the standalone adjective takes the force of an unstated noun)? Well it is certainly "all" something. Could there be a more precise referent for "all?" Actually, it is the word "ransom" that should supply the referent for "all" in this case. It is a full and complete ransom, and those for whom it is paid out will surely see the benefit of it.
How, indeed, could it be a ransom for those who are never ransomed by it? Yes, some interpreters do, in fact, teach that God has paid a great ransom; cancelling the debt of every last sinner in the whole world. One wonders does that include the betrayal by Judas, the "son of perdition"? Ultimately and sadly, this view leads to the Arminian-like conclusion that the destiny of the ungodly is finally their "choice," rather than the judicial fiat of God, John 3:18. Did God release every last sinner from their condemnation, and yet they've chosen to remain estranged from His yearning heart? Since He is God, His must be in eternally unfulfilled yearning! Clearly this is a blasphemous conclusion, but necessitated by the erroneous view that God has ransomed the damned. And, it makes some great portion of Christ's shed blood unavailing, not securing the release of some assumed ransomed souls.
For consistency's sake, therefore, we must understand that "all" (1 Tim 2:6) is defined by those who are ransomed; and not "those who are ransomed" being defined by the "all" word which gets extended in the error to every human being besides the Savior himself.
Also it is a text about men at prayer; men who do not know the secret things of God, but who do know that God has a general love for his creation and for man as his image bearer, which is expressed elsewhere in similar fashion. For instance, John 3:16. And men should go to prayer, in general terms (and for specific souls); knowing that God has not revealed any specific exclusions regarding his offer of mercy. Whatever God has decreed shall certainly come to pass and whatever does not occur is not according to the will of God’s decree. Thus, all men are not saved, but only those in whose stead Christ has been given as a ransom.
“. . . not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” ( 2 Pet. 3:9 ).
2 Peter 3:9 refers to the elect who will come to repentance and who must first be gathered in before the world perishes. It also makes mention of the command and the declaration of the gospel which commands everyone who hears it to repent, speaking of both God’s pleasure and displeasure relative to repentance or the lack of it.As demonstrated, there simply is no Scripture you can appeal to in support of indefinite atonement. Our Lord says that His blood is poured out for “many,” not for “all” (Matthew 26:28). Robert, was Jesus in error when He said "many" and not "all"? I think not. Rather, Our Lord's atonement was definite, not indefinite; that is, the atonement was for a known, specific amount of persons (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9) that no man can number from among the peoples of the world (Rev. 7:9).
Robert, as is my usual custom, I have provided you with a thorough answer that will likely be met with a short wave-off, as is your usual custom. I pray that my assumption is proven wrong. :AMR:
AMR
ALL MEN means ALL MEN. Just like Hebrews 2:9 means, EVERYBODY. Or 1 John 2:2 means THE WHOLE WORLD.
You Calvinist are always screwing with the scriptures, trying to make it say something that it doesn't say.
You Calvinist are always screwing with the scriptures, trying to make it say something that it doesn't say.
Sure he does. He says so. He desires we come to repentance. Many choose not to do it.
He desired Adam and Eve to be obedient...desired to kill them Israelites too...But Moses cooled His jets
Dialogos
Well-known member
[/quote]
Νick,
Most educated people learn to interpret text in context. I had pretty much learned that lesson by the end of 8th grade.
John 12 is a completely different context than John 6 and anyone who doesn't get that is either being willfully ignorant or hasn't mastered basic reading skills yet.
In John 6, Jesus is on the other side of the sea of Tiberius in Caperneum, and is talking to the Jews who were grumbling.
In John 12 Jesus is in Jerusalem talking to His disciples about the request of the Greeks to see Jesus. Jesus says that if He is lifted up, He will draw all men (Jews and Greeks alike) to himself.
Educate yourself about the Greek word (πας, πασα, παν).
From BDAG:
Def. 5
Look up the way the KJV translates πασαν in Matthew 4:23.
The fact that Revelation 3:20 is written to the church does not change its meaning.
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.
God is just in all that he does. If you don't come to Christ to be saved by him you are without an excuse, Romans 1:18-20.
Ask Mr. Religion
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God's Preceptive and Decretive Will
God's Preceptive and Decretive Will
Hence the mere fact that God commands men to repent and believe does not lead to the conclusion that God wills or desires the salvation of all men. To allege that God wills or desires the salvation of all men as a part of His preceptive will is to impose volitional elements on the preceptive will.
Holy Scripture says that God does whatsoever pleases Him, that what He desires He does, that He will do all His pleasure, that His Word shall accomplish what He pleases, that He works all things after the counsel of His own will.
There is no problem with using desire anthropopathically—assigning human traits to God, as in God's hand, or face to accommodate our finite understandings—for the revealed will of God as our English translations traditionally use it. Some modern English translations go so far as to use "want" which implies "lack," and this goes too far.
But "desire" in terms of a thing or object desirable in itself can be used in a neutral sense. The question is whether this desire concerns an event or a thing. Does it refer to futurition (shall be) or obligation (ought to be)? A future event which never takes place leads to unfulfilled desire and internal dissatisfaction, which is contrary to the express teaching of Scripture that what God desires even that He does, and He does whatsoever pleases Him as the ever-blessed One. God fulfils the desire of all living things, which is an office He accomplishes as One who fulfils His own desires. On this basis the view that assigns an unfulfilled desire in God creates an internal contradiction with that which God has decreed "shall" come to pass, which is unbecoming the majesty of God. Hence it is proper to limit the desire of God's revealed will to obligation (precepts), to the thing itself, and regard futurition and event as pertaining to God's decretive will.
For more, see: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4586155#post4586155
AMR
God's Preceptive and Decretive Will
In Scripture, God often speaks preceptively, that is according to His preceptive will, those things that we should do. The main point is that there is no volitional element in God's precepts. The precept is what God requires of man, not what God volitionally chooses for Himself, that is, God's decretive will (decreed). When a parent tells a child he must not go out onto the road without an adult, the parent does not bind himself to stay off the road. Likewise, God's precepts are good for man; His own purposes are higher.
Hence the mere fact that God commands men to repent and believe does not lead to the conclusion that God wills or desires the salvation of all men. To allege that God wills or desires the salvation of all men as a part of His preceptive will is to impose volitional elements on the preceptive will.
Holy Scripture says that God does whatsoever pleases Him, that what He desires He does, that He will do all His pleasure, that His Word shall accomplish what He pleases, that He works all things after the counsel of His own will.
There is no problem with using desire anthropopathically—assigning human traits to God, as in God's hand, or face to accommodate our finite understandings—for the revealed will of God as our English translations traditionally use it. Some modern English translations go so far as to use "want" which implies "lack," and this goes too far.
But "desire" in terms of a thing or object desirable in itself can be used in a neutral sense. The question is whether this desire concerns an event or a thing. Does it refer to futurition (shall be) or obligation (ought to be)? A future event which never takes place leads to unfulfilled desire and internal dissatisfaction, which is contrary to the express teaching of Scripture that what God desires even that He does, and He does whatsoever pleases Him as the ever-blessed One. God fulfils the desire of all living things, which is an office He accomplishes as One who fulfils His own desires. On this basis the view that assigns an unfulfilled desire in God creates an internal contradiction with that which God has decreed "shall" come to pass, which is unbecoming the majesty of God. Hence it is proper to limit the desire of God's revealed will to obligation (precepts), to the thing itself, and regard futurition and event as pertaining to God's decretive will.
For more, see: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4586155#post4586155
AMR
You need to start with the fact that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous in all that he does.
When you do that maybe you will understand what the Bible is saying.
Hebrews 3:15 was written for the benefit of the NT church, not for the world.
beloved57
Well-known member
Those men Christ tasted death for Heb 2:9, by that death they were reconciled to God when they were enemies, and shall be saved by His Life Rom 5:10
[FONT="]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/FONT]
God desires that people did not burn their children alive in a sacrifice to Ba'al. But they did.
God desired to kill Moses, and relented when his wife did what Moses didn't do. There is that feminsim again.