beloved57
Well-known member
Hilarious ... when you "teach" the "Bible".
Do you believe that the old testament saints will be conformed to the image of Christ? Rom 8:28-30?
Hilarious ... when you "teach" the "Bible".
Do you believe that the old testament saints will be conformed to the image of Christ? Rom 8:28-30?
That is completely irrelevant to the term "remnant". That term is ONLY applied to members of the nation of Israel in the Bible.
No it's not irrelevant, please answer the question.
Not going to play your silly games.
Your fairy tale is way out there.
Nothing silly about the truth. Who does David mean here Ps 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Nothing silly about the truth. Who does David mean here Ps 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Nothing silly about the truth. Who does David mean here Ps 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
I would have included the entire chapter. The context is very important as it demonstrates what David meant by "likeness".
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
I'm not you. I believe that the likeness meant is the image and likeness of his Savior and Head the Lord Jesus Christ Rom 8:29
Rom 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
End Times Remnant Church
The remnant church is something that many Christians don't think about, because most professing Christians trust that their belief alone in Jesus makes them part of the true church of God, whether or not they are truly walking with the Lord. But is this right, or does God have a true remnant people during these end times? Who is the remnant church talked about in the Bible? Throughout His Word, God has declared that He would keep a people for Himself, a true people who would obey Him and not wander from His truth. Take a look at the following verses:
Isaiah 1:9
Isaiah 10:20
Jeremiah 23:3
Jeremiah 31:7
Joel 2:32
Romans 9:27
Please don't think that by saying "Israel", that the Bible just means the literal nation of Israel. Because the literal nation of Israel are not longer God's chosen people. Christians have now taken on the name Israel in a spiritual sense.
Did you catch what Paul said above in Romans? Even though the number of the children of Israel is as the sand of the sea, in other words, a HUGE number, only a remnant will be saved. Now we all know what the word remnant means - a small amount left. This applies to the Christian world today. Although there are millions upon millions of professing Christians, only a few in comparison will actually be saved. Now that may shock you, I don't know, but it's the truth. Jesus confirmed in Matthew 7:14.
Only a few will walk down the narrow path. There are so many professing Christians who are walking down the broad path to destruction, because they believe they can have Jesus in one hand and the world in the other hand. But to be a part of the true remnant church we need to surrender ALL to Christ.
There is a remnant people in these end times who satan is making war with. And what makes them stand out to satan as the true remnant church of God?
Revelation 12:17
So they are a commandment keeping people (including the seventh day Sabbath) and they also have the testimony of Jesus. But what is the testimony of Jesus?
Revelation 19:10
So the true remnant church of God obey Him and keep His Commandments, and they have the spirit of prophecy. In other words, they have a special understanding of Bible prophecy.
And when you have a remnant piece of material, how does it compare to the ORIGINAL? It is exactly the same right.? So the end time remnant people will be living their faith in the exact same way as the New Testament church. They "look" the same.
ARE WE ONE OF THEM?
It's clear you have no idea as to what I meant. That entire chapter is speaking about being conformed into the image of God.
beloved57 and Nanja.
That's about it.
Evidently you have no idea what I meant, I'm speaking of the one speaking in that particular verse. I believe it refers to the ot saint being Glorified and conforming to the image of Christ.
AGREED...so when does this root begin? Creation yes? I mean He was there? Maybe not known as Jesus Christ but certainly there yes?
Also ALREADY with two followers following Him as He was the Head or? And they were following...on condition...
He was ALSO there at Sinai when THIS ekklesia was in the OT wilderness as Stephen claimed...Acts 7:38
He was ALSO then already the Head yes?
The Head which His body followed?
The Rock they ALL drank the SAME spiritual drink from yes? 1 Cor 10:4
I mean His body
was ALREADY THEN full of those NOT OF JACOB...
and they ALL drank from Him
the Head...
and Paul was here describing to the gentile Corinthians he was writing that ALL THAT became OUR example...and their failures became WARNINGS that WE NOT follow them...”nor let us tempt Christ AS SOME OF THEM ALSO TEMPTED and were destroyed”...
See? Paul concludes these examples “are OUR admonition on whom the ends of the ages have come” 1 Cor 10:11
Same promise to the same group by the SAME LAW...
the HEAD...*
There is the continuation from the OT wilderness when they drank from Him * . . . until NOW the ends of the ages...
Paul warns US not to fail
as THIS BODY
DID THEN tempting Christ as they did...it remains ONE LAW for those of Jacob and those NOT of Jacob...
and ALREADY then full of those NOT OF JACOB...
and inheriting the Promise in whatever tribe they resided in...not just Judah...Ezekiel 47:21-23
21You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”…
And He was the Head...
He wished to be their King...
they rejected Him...wanted their own to be like the other nations...
He did NOT WANT a Temple...David insisted...
and ALREADY when THIS ekklesia was in the OT wilderness...grafted INTO a Sabbath keeping root...IS WHY strangers within our gates ALSO remembered to keep the Sabbath...Ex 20:10 the ONLY commandment specifically including them...the irony
And in the New Covenant which received His Laws...in their circumcised hearts and "inner Jew" Christ minds...NOT a NEW Law or revised Law...
or Paul’s alleged “NOT FOR ME” another gospel...
They the wild branches bore the SAME FRUIT...OLIVES...and NO DISTINCTION between US Jews or them believing Gentiles was made by Yah...claimed Peter Acts 15:9
Is WHY the council was being CALLED...
these WILD BRANCHES were NOT meeting on another day eating HAM sandwiches...
but crowding synagogues ON SABBATHS and bringing clean meat for pot luck afterwards...but defiled if offered to idols first or still with blood or not properly killed...ALL OT requirements ALREADY FOR THOSE NOT OF JACOB which were STRANGERS WITHIN THY GATES...
when they were following the Head in the OT wilderness...
So these wild branches bore the SAME FRUIT as the Sabbath keeping root and clean meat eating trunk...and MATCHED THE FRUIT of the branches THAT WERE NOT CUT OFF FOR UNBELIEF...you know NO DISTINCTION between the OLIVES
just like in biology a successful graft must come from the SAME FAMILY...
yup first He put away His bride for adultery...
and then...well she KILLED her bridegroom and ALL marriage covenants to her were "until death do us part" and His MURDER certainly did them part...
that crime certainly merits a pruning of the unbelievers...
and a search for a NEW BRIDE...
the resurrected Groom has the same taste of woman...one faithful loyal obedient to Him His ways...His SAME LAW...
halleluYah...but ALSO ON CONDITION...you know...to bear fruit of NO DISTINCTION...
as if new citizens to a commonwealth follow OTHER LAWS
or the old ones they once were foreign with UNKNOWN BY YAH...
new citizens adopted by a NEW COUNTRY certainly are NOT MAD and claim the new laws are “NOT FOR ME!"
Peter clarifies “But in EVERY nation WHOEVER fears Yah and works righteousness is accepted by Him” Acts 10:35
The SAME “whosoever believeth in Him” John 3:16...ONE LAW for those of Jacob and those NOT of Jacob...
when they are made jealous by our love...and wish to rejoin His Body
through Him its Head...
saved “same as we are”...by faith in Him...then to works befitting repentance says Paul Acts 26:20
As myraids of Jews believed and were still zealous for the Law...
NOT two different plants here...BOTH PRODUCE OLIVES...hope you notice that...
But does imply the similarity in the new branches with those NOT cut off for their unbelief...
they are supported from the Sabbath keeping root since from the beginning at creation...
to the clean meat and festival keeping trunk to the still believing branches with NO DISTINCTION...in HIM...Jew and Gentile JOINED...both citizens of Israel...a new man...bearing the SAME FRUIT...olives...
I mentioned Acts 15 council as EVIDENCE to this similarity
and used James’ confirmation that grafted branches bear the SAME fruit not differing...NOT olive from fig and fig from grape vines...
Acts 15 council concluded 5 OT regulations for those NOT OF JACOB and ALREADY IN THE OT...3 of which regarding dietary...the other sexual immorality...and Sabbath keeping to hear Moses read and preached in every city...Acts 15:21
can that which is defiled be made Holy?
Can man make Holy what He did NOT?
He sets the standards as to what is and is NOT Holy...
Throughout the OT starting with Adam and Eve their covering with fig leaves...
salvation by works NOT ordained by Him was the cause of IDOLATRY...Israel too thought it could make New things Holy and fell into idolatry...NEW man made law does that...
And the ORIGIN of idolatrous thinking is that His Law is “NOT DISPENSED TO ME”
yup new comers CHANGE NOTHING about what is supporting them...
IMAGINE A NEW BRANCH GRAFTED IN CLAIMING “BEAR FRUIT? NAAAAW NOT FOR ME...THATS FOR THE OTHER BRANCHES ONLY"...LOL
SpoilerNew International Version;
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
New Living Translation
We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”
English Standard Version
But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
Berean Study Bible
On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Berean Literal Bible
But we believe ourselves to be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same manner as they also are."
New American Standard Bible
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
New King James Version
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
King James Bible
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Christian Standard Bible
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way they are."
Contemporary English Version
But we believe that we will be saved by the gift of undeserved grace from our Lord Jesus Christ, just as the Gentiles are.
Good News Translation
No! We believe and are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
On the contrary, we believe we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way they are."
International Standard Version
We certainly believe that it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, that we are saved, just as they are."
NET Bible
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are."
New Heart English Bible
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But by the grace of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, we believe in order to receive life, as they do”.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
We certainly believe that the Lord Jesus saves us the same way that he saves them-through his kindness."
New American Standard 1977
“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
King James 2000 Bible
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
American King James Version
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
American Standard Version
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.
Darby Bible Translation
But we believe that we shall be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same manner as they also.
English Revised Version
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
Webster's Bible Translation
But we believe, that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved even as they.
Weymouth New Testament
On the contrary, we believe that it is by the grace of the Lord Jesus that we, as well as they, shall be saved."
World English Bible
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
Young's Literal Translation
but, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, even as also they.'
So what if King Jimmy translates it like a commandment? As if those are only predictions? “Thou shalt...”
Look at the greek?
SpoilerOn the contrary,
ἀλλὰ (alla)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 235: But, except, however. Neuter plural of allos; properly, other things, i.e. contrariwise.
we believe
πιστεύομεν (pisteuomen)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Plural
Strong's Greek 4100: From pistis; to have faith, i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust.
[it is] through
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.
the
τῆς (tēs)
Article - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
grace
χάριτος (charitos)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 5485: From chairo; graciousness, of manner or act.
of
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
[the] Lord
Κυρίου (Kyriou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2962: Lord, master, sir; the Lord. From kuros; supreme in authority, i.e. controller; by implication, Master.
Jesus
Ἰησοῦ (Iēsou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2424: Of Hebrew origin; Jesus, the name of our Lord and two other Israelites.
[that] we are saved,
σωθῆναι (sōthēnai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Passive
Strong's Greek 4982: To save, heal, preserve, rescue. From a primary sos; to save, i.e. Deliver or protect.
just as
τρόπον (tropon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 5158: From the same as trope; a turn, i.e. mode or style; figuratively, deportment or character.
they [are].”
κἀκεῖνοι (kakeinoi)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's Greek 2548: And he, she, it, and that. From kai and ekeinos; likewise that.
You really mean to say that Peter et al are yet to be saved? In a the future? It says ARE SAVED...excepting king Jimmy’s version
Peter also knows ALL are yet to RECEIVE salvation literally at the second coming...
when He returned with it...
When ALL of His will receive it literally...finally and in glorified bodies...and then ALL will worship New Moon to New Moon
Sabbath to Sabbath...
you know as when this ekklesia was in the OT wilderness with Him as its Head...
ummm...”are BEING saved” NOT already saved...as the condition remains...is why all the “persevere, overcome, until the end” even the New King Jimmy says so
again..."are saved, if you hold fast that word"...not already saved...BUT ON CONDITION
yup again...being saved...not already saved
right...Paul does NOT place these wild branches AHEAD of the BRANCHES WHICH REMAIN IN THE FAITH...those saved and those being saved...
is why the calls to remain faithful until the end...
and warnings of WOLVES coming with another gospel another christ who would seperate His kingdom
between Natural branches that DO vs Wild branches who claim “NOT FOR ME”
Notice too that Peter completely flips the council on its head as these Jews met to decide what to do with the Gentiles
crowding INTO synagogues every Sabbath...
by stating “we are saved JUST AS they are”...
of course these Gentiles were circumcised of the heart and obedient to Him
IS WHY NO DISTINCTION FROM JEWS ALSO BELIEVING AND OBEDIENT...
were these gentiles NOT obedient to Him His ways after faith
but continued with Ham eating or Sunday/every day worship and NOT Sabbath keeping THAT WOULD BE A DISTINCTION
Peter also rubs it in that Yah went FIRST TO THE GENTILES...James confirms this Act 15:14 “Simon has declared how Yah has AT FIRST visited the gentiles to take out fo them a people for His Name.”
What could that be BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST...?
Heb 11 charts that origin...Abel Enoch Noah Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses...ALL NOT JEWS
oh my...
So the pattern of Yah's patience and longsuffering with Paul is twisted
into a NEW “manner and purpose”
and as “a special plan”
a NEW PROGRAM
apart from theSabbath keeping believersIsrael...
you know the very BODY
He showed NO longsuffering patience with?...no manner of purpose?...LOL
And yet Paul this first member of the NEW PROGRAM kept the Sabbath
AND festivals
and agreed to the Acts 15 dietary restrictions?
Even claimed to worship according to sect known as "the Way" the God of his fathers and zealous for the Law...
Just like the myraids of other Jews zealous of the Law...
how the Acts 15 Jerusalem council was NOT AWARE of a NEW PROGRAM
for those gentiles crowding synagogues every Sabbath to hear of One resurrected and Moses
Paul was there when believing wild branches were instructed to bring CLEAN FOOD to potlucks as per OT dietary restrictions...
Paul kept silence
because there was NO NEW program...
Paul was clear through Yahushua is the forgiveness of sins...and by Him EVERYONE is justified...not just Jews...is WHY the gentiles begged to hear more the next Sabbath...not a NEW PROGRAM DAY...
oh good...you do realize that...
they were circumcised...most were not but "just strangers within thy gates" still fearing Yah and devout to Him but NOT to their OLD WAYS...as if Ruth continued to worship her former god or New God with former ways...
hmmm...a believing body following its Head...Who IS Christ...if it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...how many more evidences to you need?
NOPE...did NOT even have to be circumcised
certainly NOT have to join ONLY the tribe of Judah...and yet as the Sabbath commandment proves...which you do NOT remember...it was ONE LAW for even the strangers within their gates...ALREADY WILD BRANCHES GRAFTED IN...
NT Jews had forgotten/ignored/rejected their purpose to be a Light to the WORLD...
ALL nations were to worship at His House of Prayer...instead Jews monopolized the PROMISE in their enmity for the unclean goyim...
JUST AS THEY HAD DIVIDED ISRAEL by charging worship TAX to the other 10 tribes coming to Jerusalem to worship...
nope again...ONE LAW was ALREADY joining them in the OT...
even giving them LAND in whatever tribe they settled in Ezekiel 47:23 now THAT is a joining...
again...Remember the seventh day Sabbath?...and to the stranger within thy gates...the ONLY commandment to SPECIFICALLY include them...yup the irony
right because AFTER GRACE and FAITH the NOW CIRCUMCISED OF HEART and INNER JEW CHRIST MINDED gentiles
ESTABLISHED
THE LAW...Romans 3:31
and there IS NO DISTINCTION between them
and the BRANCHES THAT REMAIN...
Even a BLIND PAGAN could determine which group did NOT eat unclean and which ate bacon...LOL
and you want me to believe Yah did NOT notice the distinction between those that did want to follow Him His ways VS. those that claimed all that was for Jews only and NOT DISPENSED TO THEM...LOL
even Satan believes
yet claims His Ways are “NOT FOR ME” and went to make another gospel another christ...
I noted you left unaddressed that ALL are given the Promise
and those that believe are adopted IN...
by the SAME LAW which secures their rights...
ON CONDITION as is WHOSOEVER BELIEVES
so technically Head of all creation or? I mean I understand your need to resist this description...but it is a better one than High Priest or pope right?...Yes, Jesus is the Creator.
oh ok so NOT the Head established the Laws standards and conditions? Who then?No, not the Head of.
Adam and Eve were, indeed, fellowshipping with God, on the condition that they do not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which is a symbol of the Law (the concept of law, not any specific law or group of laws)
ok good...so you are familiar with poor Stephen's definition of ekklesia in the OT wilderness...congregation, church body yes?...but with NO HEAD? But Christ was there at Sinai...Yes, Christ was there at Sinai with the Church of Israel.
so NOT in the pillar of fire by night and shade casting cloud during the day? They were NOT His people?No. Christ was not the Head of anything.
just following poor Stephen's lead..."ekklesia" being congregation, assembly, church of believers, body...and Stephen claimed He was there...now I dont suppose He followed Moses right?Question begging two things here:
1) that Christ was the "Head" of something.
2) that Israel was "His Body."
You're eisegeting, not exegeting.
okAgreed.
yes yes...no head of households there though right? No head of the nation? Again, Israel is referred to as Wife and Servant...Whore as well...but that is later...Israel is not referred to as His body, but as a house, a nation.
ok so we'll stick to "church of Israel" as you called it...and agree He was there at Sinai...(just NOT as Head) and so we also agree it was ALREADY THEN IN THE OT WILDERNESS and ALREADY full of those NOT OF JACOB...Yes.
ok right and they gentiles ALSO partook belonged and were saved from Egypt and lived the SAME LIFESTYLE by the SAME LAWS...ONE LAW for native and foreigner alike...Yes.
well less so...I mean it is a body of believers yes? and necessarily needs a head...you really are reluctant with that phrase...LOL but again understandable...Question begging.
Except it's not, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, because your posts are so convoluted.
well...except that you admit it being a church of Israel and well...and churches do have a Head yes? I mean I do understand your need for Him NOT to be its Leader known as the Head and of the BODY of Christ...already back then...as Stephen described it...Question begging, and addressed already.
they all ALREADY THEN felt pretty apocalyptic in their teaching and epistle writings...and NOW even more so or? I mean rapture is coming and stuff right?"Now" is not the ends of the ages.
1 Cor 10:6 "Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did."Cite?
yes yes...I understand anything but "body" or "head" as they necessitate each other...but as you said this "church of Israel" needs a head, chief, boss, shepherd...pope, pastor, high priest?Supra.
yes. Agreed. However BOTH were under ONE LAW in the "church of Israel"The phrase, "those of Jacob and those not of Jacob" indicates a distinction between Jew and Gentile.
right AGAIN and since the OT Wilderness...ONE LAW...as in what you call the BOC they are NOT TO SIN...or? and by the SAME STANDARD? or?In the Body of Christ, there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile.
NOPE...all those within this body are under the SAME LAW...I mean two groups one keeping the Law and the other claiming "not for me" would be distinguishing...Peter was clear Yah made NO DISTINCTION Acts 15:9 BECAUSE the gentiles were keeping the Law...with hearts circumcised...faith and OBEY...SAME LAWIn other words, a distinction...
right...and already a good foreshadowing as to the PROMISE IN HIM being FOR ALL...on condition...you know ONE LAW...His...as in the Sabbath made for MAN...ALL MAN...not just for Jews...Which is talking about Israel and her covenant with God, and is NOT talking about the Body of Christ, which did not and would not exist for another 600 years.
resistance noted...ok but by now we can agree it is an issue of wording and descriptions...I mean a shepherd is the head of his sheep remains a good analogy? or Bridegroom Head of His House and Bride yes? King head of the state...etc...Saying it doesn't make it so.
and even more than their King...Agreed.
organism? LOL...you mean organization? I mean the church is not normally understood as an organism...especially a biological organism...and yet you wish to argue it is and with a body NOT doing as its head...that would be an odd biological organism...But "King" implies a nation, not an organism like the Body of Christ.
and much more besides changing much to make new laws and further idolatry to match the world its ways...and NOT follow Him His Ways...as He was their Leader, God, King, Chief, Head of State...Yes.
for what the temple being PLAN B? or C? Even the tabernacle was already a model of what was in Heaven...you know...pure...Holy...a place of Law and order and heirarchy...and authority...again of LawCite?
yes IS WHY I noted it...all of it in the OT a foreshadowing as to how this Sabbath keeping clean meat eating root and trunk body continues to grow...and into the New Covenant with branches now grafted into it producing the SAME FRUIT...your BoC is from silence or would have been understood BEFORE Jesuit Scofield and Darby 19th century commentaries...All talking about Israel. Nothing to do with the BoC.
understood...JUST SAID THAT...for ANY AND ALL Whosoever believe and OBEY...His SAME LAW He NOW put NOT into a temple but into circumcised hearts and "inner Jew" Christ like minds...His LIFESTYLE demonstrating the NT way PRIOR His death..."if you claim to abide in Him you must live as He did"...but which you and yours claim is "NOT FOR ME"Again, the New Covenant was for Israel.
Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrews 8:8
you are hoping to convince yourself and others...but so far an argument from silence...twisting scripture to squeeze something that resembles “Grace ALONE...no obedience necessary...certainly NOT OT laws” Paul’s CERTAINLY NOT was about NOT living in sin...which is KEEPING His Law...Paul's gospel WAS a separate dispensation,
AS BOTH WERE KEEPING THE SAME LAW... the Romans even getting upset that Paul was "advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice." Acts 16:21 you think Paul was teaching Romans Sabbath is NO LONGER binding on them and eat PIG? LOLno distinction between Jew and Gentile,
NOPE NONE MADE Peter taught Acts 15:9...would be quite easy to distinguish groups meeting different days or eating different menus...whereas the New Covenant made such a distinction.
oh they are different all right...much different than before He abolished the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile and abolished the Jew's enmity towards "unclean" goyimThings that are different are not the same.
right...both believing Jews and believing Greeks BORE the SAME FRUIT...not olives from fig branch...as James says can not happen...Duh.
oh my...according to who? Two olive trees from where? Zechariah and Revelation who are the anointed ones Moses and Eliyah?You seem to be confused on something, maybe this will resolve the issue:
Prior to Paul's conversion, there were still two olive trees, one wild, the Gentiles, and one natural, the nation of Israel.
...all this in chapter 9? I see not a hint of this...Acts 9, Paul is converted, and God simultaneously cuts off the unbelieving Jews, the branches on the natural tree that bore no fruit, and grafts in the wild branches.
WHAT? you can NOT graft an apple tree with orange branches no matter how cultivated they are...biological grafts have to be same of the SAME family(Consider for a moment that today, we can graft in branches from cultivated plants onto other cultivated plants, even if they aren't the same species.
of course you can...take a wild apple branch from the woods and graft it into ANY apple tree in the orchard and it will produce...applesBut what we cannot do is graft branches from wild plants onto cultivated plants. God is amazing, isn't He?)
Cite. (Ha that is fun)Again, the grafting in of the Gentiles occurred in Acts 9 at Paul's conversion.
Peter already at Pentecost referenced Joel 2:32 “WHOEVER calls on the name...shall be saved...”...and taught Yah raised Christ to His throne...a throne of ALL nations not just David’s...Peter, in verse 7, is referring to his interactions with the Gentiles, but whether before or after Paul's conversion is not specified, and perhaps he could be talking about both,
Peter already in his second sermon Acts 3:25-26 confirms gentiles were to be blessed...AND ”to you FIRST” necessarily implies there is a second...and not “to you Jews ONLY”but in verse 8 he clearly switches to talking about from Paul's conversion onward.
yes of course much dispute as IT WAS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE OT that 1) circumcision SAVED and B) gentiles HAD to be cut in order to live amongst and fellowship within their gates...3) oh AND the 12 were NOT teaching circumcision because of 1 and BThe council was called because there was a conflict between what Paul was teaching (don't circumcise (according to the custom of Moses) to be saved) and what was taught by the twelve in Jerusalem. Note what was said at the beginning of verse 7: "And when there had been much dispute..."
even still in chapter 21 it is rumored that Paul teaches this error and he takes a vow to prove he does NOT...but walks uprightly and keeps the law Acts 21:24Things that are different...
in the custom of Moses...where adult men become 8 day old infants again? LOL again throughout the OT ONE LAW for native and strangers alike...ONLY PASSOVER required circumcision but the other festivals did NOT...Then the Pharisees jump in and demand that the Gentiles (Paul's converts) should circumcise.
it certainly is implied that Paul taught the Law for the BOC is “NOT FOR ME”...you know a new way as Israel was suspended...yada yada yada...oh and other days of worship were kept and Ham sandwiches all around...you know "things are different"No one said they were...
You would do better to steel man my and Mid-Acts Dispensationalism's position than to straw man it.
Acts 13:44 such crowds as to provoke Jews' jealousy...BTW Paul’s epistles went to synagogues not churches...and synagogues full of gentiles...Um, no, they weren't, as far as I'm aware, unless you would be so kind as to provide citation... in which case I would be more than happy to address it.
true...primarily about circumcision and Paul STILL CIRCUMCISED...Timothy LET him...Again, the Acts 15 council was called because of a conflict on circumcision, not specifically the Sabbath.
namely everything...the OT already showed what those NOT OF JACOB were to OBEY as to be strangers within thy gates of THOSE OF JACOB...this council referenced these 5 things the OT ALREADY required of THOSE NOT OF JACOB to followWhat does the Old Testament (not talking about the covenant) have to do with this?
understandable you are NOT able to see that these NEW BRANCHES being grafted INTO the root and trunk MATCHED the FRUIT of branches ALREADY growing there and NOT cut off for unbelief...I have literally no idea where your train of thought went to here...
oh He prolly can...that tree in the Rev bears 12 different fruit for the Nations...oh and ALSO NOT JUST FOR JEWS...btwAre you saying that God cannot graft something in from a different family?
good and because that bride did NOT follow her husband...you know...the Head of her household...she was put awayAgreed.
and?Except that God divorced Israel several centuries before Christ. That's why the book of Lamentations is sometimes called God's certificate of divorce to Israel.
because that is exactly what happened...that bride which was put away finally killed her groom when He came to call her back...and death did PART them...Israel killing her Messiah isn't ever described as the woman killing her Husband... so I'm not sure why you would use that analogy...
right being merciful means to ALLOW CHOICE and they chose...to MURDER Him and suspended all covenants...He seeks a NEW BRIDE much like the first...faithful and obedient...to HimAlso, while God intended marriage to be "until death parts us", God, being merciful, allows divorce because man is sinful (hence the certificate of divorce, Lamentations).
He is merciful yes...but His are distinct and obedient and complicit...being forgiven does NOT repent them...repenting they JOIN HIS...not have their own way in...I AM THE WAY...Except that they weren't cut off at the point they rejected their Messiah, because God is merciful.
Ahhh yes Judas...Also, as Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," since God had used their blindness and deafness to accomplish His will, that Christ would lay down His life for the sin of the world. In other words, what Christ asked for of His Father was that He forgive them for being blind and deaf to the Gospel, because it was the means He used to bring about His crucifixion.
so there are TWO brides? You would think the trouble Abram went through would have taught Him something...LOLYou seem to have missed or forgotten what both God and Paul said, that God WILL take Israel back if she repents! God is MERCIFUL!
those TEMPORAL covenants are done away with...His death parted them...only Spiritual remains...Which is what He is hoping Israel will become once again,
is happening...when Jews come to Him however they NO LONGER SEEK TEMPORAL POWER...they are IN HIM...but which will not happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
and your MADNESS IS? LOL...His covenants with Israel are ALL CONDITIONAL...they failed as a blood nation having KILLED the TESTATOR...No idea what you're talking about here, as such a phrase isn't used in the Bible, as far as I'm aware, not even indirectly.
so you divide His house...nice...and call your indolence grace...Which is why Israel has her "house rules," and the Body of Christ has it's "house rules,"
right your economy has counterfeited His coin...idolatry at its finest...quite close to the real but NOT a currency issued by Him...Oh, by the way, "House rules" in Greek?
oikonomia
oikos = house
nomos = rules
That's where we get the word "economy" from, and is is translated as "dispensation."
Could you rewrite that sentence so I can actually understand what you're saying?
so you as citizen of heaven DO NOT keep His Commandments? LOLIn any case: The Body of Christ is not a nation, and doesn't have "citizens," per se, but members. We (BoC) are "citizens" of heaven, so to speak, but not because Heaven is a nation to be a citizen of, but rather that we are citizens of the overarching Household of God, Ephesians 2:19; Philippians 3:17, 20.
right...how much more progressive can this get? How much more diverse and multiculti Marxist does this become?You're conflating the "household of Israel" with the "household of God."
The former is part of the latter, but does not include all of the latter. The Body of Christ is part of the latter, but not the former.
and yet Cornelius was devout to what? his former customs and ways? Feared his former gods? Gave alms to the pagans?Speaking of the latter, above, not the former. Remember, Acts 10 comes AFTER Acts 9.
you force a distinction where there is NONE...as if the NEW COVENANT was NOT for gentiles...as if the OLD COVENANT was NOT for gentiles...your MADness NEEDS to blind youReferring to the New Covenant, which was meant for the former, above, but not the latter.
I will stand with poor Stephen who understood this congregation this assembly has been around A LONG LONG TIME...certainly since the OT wilderness...The word "body" is not found in Acts 26:20, or anywhere in Acts 26, for that matter.
right because you rather read into this that A NEW PROGRAM IS IMPLEMENTED HERE SUSPENDING ISREAL rather than ALL are to turn to Yah...you know the Boss...Chief...Head Honcho oops sorry that word again...HeadThe word "head" is not found in Acts 26:20, or anywhere in Acts 26, for that matter.
LOL...Here Paul is talking about unbelieving Israel returning to her Creator, not as members of the Body, but as a nation as a whole, the Household of Israel.
right...the same He modelled and taught FOR ALL...and like in the OT gentiles are adopted IN...as it was for them too...Under their New Covenant...
two different plants? but NOW BRANCHES FROM ONE ARE GRAFTED INTO THE OTHER and YES PRODUCING OLIVES...not claiming "NOT FOR ME"Denying the difference between the wild and natural olive trees is the main reason for your confusion.
Yes, both produce olives, but they're still two different plants!
don't distract from the fact that the branches which REMAIN for their BELIEF bear the SAME FRUIT...NO DISTINCTION...and DO NOT MAKE an entirely NEW category of "oh these new grafted in branches are just for show...another group for which bearing fruit is NOT FOR THEM"When you only look at the similarities between two things, you start to get tunnel vision, and it causes you to think they're the same thing.
Start looking at the differences also, and maybe you'll start to see that they're different.
LOL...of course they were and given the Sabbath...and out of the gentiles He chose to make a people for His Name...The wild branches grafted in were not supported "from the beginning at creation."
yes IN HIM the middle wall of separation was destroyed gentiles could COME IN...and the enmity of Jews towards unclean gentiles was ABOLISHED in His flesh...so these wild branches COULD BE GRAFTED INTO AND BEAR FRUIT WITH NO DISTINCTIONYes, that describes the Body of Christ, not Israel.
BRAVO...and now this THIRD tree it bears FIGS? the grafted olive branches having caused the roots and branches to change fruit? LOLMaybe this will help:
Remember how above I said that the household of Israel is only part of the overarching household of God?
To link that analogy with the wild and natural olive trees analogy, the natural olive tree is the household of Israel, the Gentiles are the wild olive trees in the world, but the new olive tree God made by grafting in the wild branches to the natural root describes the overarching household of God.
LOL trust me they ALL wanted to eat after worship services and EVERYWHERE different menus... is why the Jerusalem council...so "LET's EAT!" But DIFFERENT recipes...IS WHY the clarifications as to what is clean were needed...Again, if you only look at the similarities, you'll become convinced it's the same. Take off your blinders, and look at the differences also.
what? that James 3:12My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.Cite?
oh my...First: Except that's not what it concluded.
Read it again:
SpoilerThen it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.They wrote this letter by them:The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “ You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
- Acts 15:22-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
Did you catch what was said in verse 24?
SpoilerSince we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “ You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— - Acts 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
In other words: The Twelve did not tell anyone go go out and tell the Gentiles to "circumcize and keep the law."
Meaning? They never wanted any of the Gentiles to do so.
encouraged? LOL..."Might we suggest you do as Yah suggests?”...causing another to stumble was weighted heavier than now...sadly...alas...modern age...Second: The following verses are NOT absolute commands, but, as stated in verse 31, an encouragement to those in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
SpoilerFor it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. - Acts 15:28-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
In other words, the Twelve were not saying "You must keep these following laws," but rather, "We encourage you to not cause the bretheren to stumble," as Paul pointed out that there's nothing inherently wrong with eating things sacrificed to idols or drinking blood, and even goes so far as to reprimand some of his converts for partaking in sexual immorality, yet without giving them a law to follow.
Yes. God does so when a person believes.[/quote} well He does...but I was talking about mortal fallen man...
ironically that is EXACTLY what Jews thought and did calling goyim "the defiled unclean" and it took Peter’s vision and instruction to teach them to call them Holy again...Unless what you meant to say is, "can that which is defiled be CALLED holy," in which case the answer is no.
phew...that is of comfort...Is WHY Peter was a good candidate to take it to the "unclean" gentiles...He had just reminded them it went to them first...Abraham being NOT a JEW...No. God's authority is above man's.
and man continues to "make Holy" as new golden calves are produced in the name of NEW UNDERSTANDING or REVELATION or MYSTERIES REVEALED...alas they did NOT heed the warnings when this congregation was in the OT wilderness...He their Chief...LOL
ok...so Sabbath remains holy...but NOT FOR YOU? Pig remains unclean...but NOT FOR YOU...got it...His STANDARD is NOT FOR YOU...Well no, not quite.
God is holy. It's an aspect of His nature.
Therefore anything that is holy is so because it aligns with who God is, not because He declared it to be so.
Now, God CAN arbitrarily assign something that has no moral value to be clean or unclean, with how that relates to holiness, and in that context, I would agree with you.
But God does not "set" the standard for holiness, He IS the standard.
what they did to violate resulted in their being naked...sub StandardWhich was a result of violating the condition God had set for them to be able to fellowship with Him directly... not a standard of holiness.
What they did to minimize the infraction compounded the problem...and NOT repenting sealed their fate...
salvation by works...covering with leaves...as if NOTHING HAPPENED...is cause for IDOLATRYNo idea what you're talking about.
Israel TOO thought it could make NEW THINGS HOLY...golden calf...other idolatries...
NEW LAWS that are after Man's tradition and NOT His causes idolatry...the Pharisees their NEW LAWS for Sabbath had Yahushua picking fights with them all the time...ok ok NOT ALL the time...
The church changed many things claiming authority to do so...your MADness is only the latest of a long line of progressive revelation to NEW INTERPRETATIONS...made by man of course...change for compromise and power...
ummmm...right! from defiled uncircumcised hearts and NOT "inner jew" Christ Mindedess comes the rejection of HIM as your Head...which plays out in one's coming up with NEW LAWS and another gospel another way another christ...even claiming His Ways are "NOT FOR ME"...False.
The origin of idolatrous thinking comes from the lust to be "god" in one's life.
new golden calves creating new worship occur all the time...you know...idolatry...NOT Him His ways...rejecting what He taught and DEMONSTRATED before He signed with His blood and sealed with His death the NEW COVENANT lifestyle...FOR ALL who believe...
but instead making changes AFTER the Testator dies...
yes...and your MADness is the NOT BEARING HIS FRUIT section of the tree...LOLAgain, new fig tree is not Israel, but overarching household of God.
oh and...I thought it was olive tree...but you change SO MUCH...ironic example...LOL
How about you show me what you wish to ADD to Romans 6 as I only see an appeal to not sin anymore and to become slaves to righteousness...you know...as the ekklesia was to be in the OT wilderness when ALREADY He was making a body for Himself to Head...Go read Romans again, please.
and I am NOT sure if you accept that for your BOC...His Standard
SpoilerWhat shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.For he who has died has been freed from sin.Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:1-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
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As for the rest of your post, your post was too long for me to reply to in one post. I will respond to the rest when I have time. I did the best I could at keeping my response in this post here as short as I could, but it's still very long because of how long yours was.
Please learn to shorten your posts a bit, and try to compose your posts better, rather than just leaving it in the form of a stream of thoughts that come from your mind (which is a good way to put thoughts into words, but terrible for reading).
LOL...yes ok...should slow down and write more pretty...often busy at work etc...
actually surprised you responded...usually just talking to myself here in TOL...but thanks for the time and attempt to clarify your points...
this topic of rejecting Him His Way...Sabbath particularly has being debated for millenniums already and now add your MADness and we have much to talk about...
but feel free to suggest how else I might clarify as it seems it is MY fault...and NOT your ADDING and inserting into that which we both read...