If you're referring to what Paul said in Romans 11, I ask that you read it again more closely.
ok
AGREED...so when does this root begin? Creation yes? I mean He was there? Maybe not known as Jesus Christ but certainly there yes?
Also ALREADY with two followers following Him as He was the Head or? And they were following...on condition...
He was ALSO there at Sinai when THIS ekklesia was in the OT wilderness as Stephen claimed...Acts 7:38
He was ALSO then already the Head yes? The Head which His body followed? The Rock they ALL drank the SAME spiritual drink from yes? 1 Cor 10:4
I mean His body was ALREADY THEN full of those NOT OF JACOB...and they ALL drank from Him the Head...
and Paul was here describing to the gentile Corinthians he was writing that ALL THAT became OUR example...and their failures became WARNINGS that WE NOT follow them...”nor let us tempt Christ AS SOME OF THEM ALSO TEMPTED and were destroyed”...
See? Paul concludes these examples “are OUR admonition on whom the ends of the ages have come” 1 Cor 10:11
Same promise to the same group by the SAME LAW...
There is the continuation from the OT wilderness when they drank from Him the HEAD...until NOW the ends of the ages...Paul warns US not to fail as THIS BODY DID THEN tempting Christ as they did...it remains ONE LAW for those of Jacob and those NOT of Jacob...
Israel is the natural branches.
and ALREADY then full of those NOT OF JACOB...and inheriting the Promise in whatever tribe they resided in...not just Judah...Ezekiel 47:21-23
21You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”…
And He was the Head...
He wished to be their King...they rejected Him...wanted their own to be like the other nations...
He did NOT WANT a Temple...David insisted...
The believing gentiles are the wild branch.
and ALREADY when THIS ekklesia was in the OT wilderness...grafted INTO a Sabbath keeping root...IS WHY strangers within our gates ALSO remembered to keep the Sabbath...Ex 20:10 the ONLY commandment specifically including them...the irony
And in the New Covenant which received His Laws...in their circumcised hearts and "inner Jew" Christ minds...NOT a NEW Law or revised Law...or Paul’s alleged “NOT FOR ME” another gospel...
They the wild branches bore the SAME FRUIT...OLIVES...and NO DISTINCTION between US Jews or them believing Gentiles was made by Yah...claimed Peter Acts 15:9
Is WHY the council was being CALLED...these WILD BRANCHES were NOT meeting on another day eating HAM sandwiches...but crowding synagogues ON SABBATHS and bringing clean meat for pot luck afterwards...but defiled if offered to idols first or still with blood or not properly killed...ALL OT requirements ALREADY FOR THOSE NOT OF JACOB which were STRANGERS WITHIN THY GATES...when they were following the Head in the OT wilderness...
So these wild branches bore the SAME FRUIT as the Sabbath keeping root and clean meat eating trunk...and MATCHED THE FRUIT of the branches THAT WERE NOT CUT OFF FOR UNBELIEF...you know NO DISTINCTION between the OLIVES
just like in biology a successful graft must come from the SAME FAMILY...
God cut off the unbelieving natural branches,
yup first He put away His bride for adultery...and then...well she KILLED her bridegroom and ALL marriage covenants to her were "until death do us part" and His MURDER certainly did them part...
that crime certainly merits a pruning of the unbelievers...and a search for a NEW BRIDE...the resurrected Groom has the same taste of woman...one faithful loyal obedient to Him His ways...His SAME LAW...
and grafted in the wild branch.
halleluYah...but ALSO ON CONDITION...you know...to bear fruit of NO DISTINCTION...as if new citizens to a commonwealth follow OTHER LAWS or the old ones they once were foreign with UNKNOWN BY YAH...new citizens adopted by a NEW COUNTRY certainly are NOT MAD and claim the new laws are “NOT FOR ME!"
Peter clarifies “But in EVERY nation WHOEVER fears Yah and works righteousness is accepted by Him” Acts 10:35
The SAME “whosoever believeth in Him” John 3:16...ONE LAW for those of Jacob and those NOT of Jacob...
God will graft back in again the natural branches that were cut off when the fullness of the gentiles has come in.
when they are made jealous by our love...and wish to rejoin His Body through Him its Head...saved “same as we are”...by faith in Him...then to works befitting repentance says Paul Acts 26:20
As myraids of Jews believed and were still zealous for the Law...
There are two diifferent plants' branches here, the natural, domesticated olive tree, and the wild olive tree.
NOT two different plants here...BOTH PRODUCE OLIVES...hope you notice that...
Paul doesn't say anything about fig trees in Romans 11.
But does imply the similarity in the new branches with those NOT cut off for their unbelief...they are supported from the Sabbath keeping root since from the beginning at creation...to the clean meat and festival keeping trunk to the still believing branches with NO DISTINCTION...in HIM...Jew and Gentile JOINED...both citizens of Israel...a new man...bearing the SAME FRUIT...olives...
I mentioned Acts 15 council as EVIDENCE to this similarity and used James’ confirmation that grafted branches bear the SAME fruit not differing...NOT olive from fig and fig from grape vines...
Acts 15 council concluded 5 OT regulations for those NOT OF JACOB and ALREADY IN THE OT...3 of which regarding dietary...the other sexual immorality...and Sabbath keeping to hear Moses read and preached in every city...Acts 15:21
In any case, it's not a matter of bearing fruit, but rather about being made holy by being grafted in:
can that which is defiled be made Holy? Can man make Holy what He did NOT?
He sets the standards as to what is and is NOT Holy...Throughout the OT starting with Adam and Eve their covering with fig leaves...salvation by works NOT ordained by Him was the cause of IDOLATRY...Israel too thought it could make New things Holy and fell into idolatry...NEW man made law does that...
And the ORIGIN of idolatrous thinking is that His Law is “NOT DISPENSED TO ME”
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and
if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. - Romans 11:16-18
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
yup new comers CHANGE NOTHING about what is supporting them...
IMAGINE A NEW BRANCH GRAFTED IN CLAIMING “BEAR FRUIT? NAAAAW NOT FOR ME...THATS FOR THE OTHER BRANCHES ONLY"...LOL
Here is what Peter says:
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” - Acts 15:11
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV.
Future tense.
Meaning it hasn't happened yet for those saved in the New Covenant.
New International Version;
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that
we are saved, just as they are."
New Living Translation
We believe that
we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”
English Standard Version
But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
Berean Study Bible
On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that
we are saved, just as they are.”
Berean Literal Bible
But we believe ourselves
to be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same manner as they also are."
New American Standard Bible
"But we believe that
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
New King James Version
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
King James Bible
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Christian Standard Bible
On the contrary, we believe that
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way they are."
Contemporary English Version
But we believe that we will be saved by the gift of undeserved grace from our Lord Jesus Christ, just as the Gentiles are.
Good News Translation
No! We believe and
are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
On the contrary, we believe
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way they are."
International Standard Version
We certainly believe that it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, that
we are saved, just as they are."
NET Bible
On the contrary, we believe that
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are."
New Heart English Bible
But we believe that
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But by the grace of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, we believe in order to receive life, as they do”.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
We certainly believe that the Lord Jesus saves us the same way that he saves them-through his kindness."
New American Standard 1977
“But we believe that
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
King James 2000 Bible
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
American King James Version
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
American Standard Version
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.
Darby Bible Translation
But we believe that we shall be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same manner as they also.
English Revised Version
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
Webster's Bible Translation
But we believe, that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved even as they.
Weymouth New Testament
On the contrary, we believe that it is by the grace of the Lord Jesus that we, as well as they, shall be saved."
World English Bible
But we believe that
we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
Young's Literal Translation
but, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe
to be saved, even as also they.'
So what if King Jimmy translates it like a commandment? As if those are only predictions? “Thou shalt...”
Look at the greek?
On the contrary,
ἀλλὰ (alla)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 235: But, except, however. Neuter plural of allos; properly, other things, i.e. contrariwise.
we believe
πιστεύομεν (pisteuomen)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Plural
Strong's Greek 4100: From pistis; to have faith, i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust.
[it is] through
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.
the
τῆς (tēs)
Article - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
grace
χάριτος (charitos)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 5485: From chairo; graciousness, of manner or act.
of
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
[the] Lord
Κυρίου (Kyriou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2962: Lord, master, sir; the Lord. From kuros; supreme in authority, i.e. controller; by implication, Master.
Jesus
Ἰησοῦ (Iēsou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2424: Of Hebrew origin; Jesus, the name of our Lord and two other Israelites.
[that]
we are saved,
σωθῆναι (sōthēnai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Passive
Strong's Greek 4982: To save, heal, preserve, rescue. From a primary sos; to save, i.e. Deliver or protect.
just as
τρόπον (tropon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 5158: From the same as trope; a turn, i.e. mode or style; figuratively, deportment or character.
they [are].”
κἀκεῖνοι (kakeinoi)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's Greek 2548: And he, she, it, and that. From kai and ekeinos; likewise that.
You really mean to say that Peter et al are yet to be saved? In a the future? It says ARE SAVED...excepting king Jimmy’s version
Peter also knows ALL are yet to RECEIVE salvation literally at the second coming...when He returned with it...
When ALL of His will receive it literally...finally and in glorified bodies...and then ALL will worship New Moon to New Moon Sabbath to Sabbath...you know as when this ekklesia was in the OT wilderness with Him as its Head...
Paul, however, states that we are already saved, 1 Corinthians 1:18,
ummm...”are BEING saved” NOT already saved...as the condition remains...is why all the “persevere, overcome, until the end” even the New King Jimmy says so
again..."
are saved, if you hold fast that word"...not already saved...BUT ON CONDITION
yup again...being saved...not already saved
present tense (or present active tense in the Greek.
right...Paul does NOT place these wild branches AHEAD of the BRANCHES WHICH REMAIN IN THE FAITH...those saved and those being saved...
is why the calls to remain faithful until the end...and warnings of WOLVES coming with another gospel another christ who would seperate His kingdom between Natural branches that DO vs Wild branches who claim “NOT FOR ME”
Notice too that Peter completely flips the council on its head as these Jews met to decide what to do with the Gentiles crowding INTO synagogues every Sabbath...by stating “we are saved JUST AS they are”...
of course these Gentiles were circumcised of the heart and obedient to Him IS WHY NO DISTINCTION FROM JEWS ALSO BELIEVING AND OBEDIENT...
were these gentiles NOT obedient to Him His ways after faith but continued with Ham eating or Sunday/every day worship and NOT Sabbath keeping THAT WOULD BE A DISTINCTION
Peter also rubs it in that Yah went FIRST TO THE GENTILES...James confirms this Act 15:14 “Simon has declared how Yah has AT FIRST visited the gentiles to take out fo them a people for His Name.”
What could that be BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST...? Heb 11 charts that origin...Abel Enoch Noah Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses...ALL NOT JEWS
The Body of Christ did not exist prior to Paul. 1 Timothy 1:16
oh my...
So the pattern of Yah's patience and longsuffering with Paul is twisted into a NEW “manner and purpose” and as “a special plan” a NEW PROGRAM apart from the
Sabbath keeping believers Israel...you know the very BODY He showed NO longsuffering patience with?...no manner of purpose?...LOL
And yet Paul this first member of the NEW PROGRAM kept the Sabbath AND festivals and agreed to the Acts 15 dietary restrictions? Even claimed to worship according to sect known as "the Way" the God of his fathers and zealous for the Law...
Just like the myraids of other Jews zealous of the Law...
ODD how the Acts 15 Jerusalem council was NOT AWARE of a NEW PROGRAM for those gentiles crowding synagogues every Sabbath to hear of One resurrected and Moses
Paul was there when believing wild branches were instructed to bring CLEAN FOOD to potlucks as per OT dietary restrictions...Paul kept silence because there was NO NEW program...Paul was clear through Yahushua is the forgiveness of sins...and by Him EVERYONE is justified...not just Jews...is WHY the gentiles begged to hear more the next Sabbath...not a NEW PROGRAM DAY...
Were there Gentiles who became proselytes in the Old Testament? YES!
oh good...you do realize that...they were circumcised...most were not but "just strangers within thy gates" still fearing Yah and devout to Him but NOT to their OLD WAYS...as if Ruth continued to worship her former god or New God with former ways...
Does that mean that the Body of Christ existed prior to Paul? NO!
hmmm...a believing body following its Head...Who IS Christ...if it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...how many more evidences to you need?
That was the Old Covenant God made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel, and if a Gentile wanted to take part in it, he had to become a Jew.
NOPE...did NOT even have to be circumcised certainly NOT have to join ONLY the tribe of Judah...and yet as the Sabbath commandment proves...which you do NOT remember...it was ONE LAW for even the strangers within their gates...ALREADY WILD BRANCHES GRAFTED IN...
NT Jews had forgotten/ignored/rejected their purpose to be a Light to the WORLD...ALL nations were to worship at His House of Prayer...instead Jews monopolized the PROMISE in their enmity for the unclean goyim...
JUST AS THEY HAD DIVIDED ISRAEL by charging worship TAX to the other 10 tribes coming to Jerusalem to worship...
In other words, there was a distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Old (and even the New!) Covenant.
nope again...ONE LAW was ALREADY joining them in the OT...even giving them LAND in whatever tribe they settled in Ezekiel 47:23 now THAT is a joining...
again...Remember the seventh day Sabbath?...and to the stranger within thy gates...the ONLY commandment to SPECIFICALLY include them...yup the irony
But Paul says that there is "no distinction between Jew and Greek" in the Body of Christ.
right because AFTER GRACE and FAITH the NOW CIRCUMCISED OF HEART and INNER JEW CHRIST MINDED gentiles ESTABLISHED THE LAW...Romans 3:31 and there IS NO DISTINCTION between them and the BRANCHES THAT REMAIN...
Even a BLIND PAGAN could determine which group did NOT eat unclean and which ate bacon...LOL
and you want me to believe Yah did NOT notice the distinction between those that did want to follow Him His ways VS. those that claimed all that was for Jews only and NOT DISPENSED TO THEM...LOL
Two separate programs for different people groups.
even Satan believes yet claims His Ways are “NOT FOR ME” and went to make another gospel another christ...
I noted you left unaddressed that ALL are given the Promise and those that believe are adopted IN...by the SAME LAW which secures their rights...ON CONDITION as is WHOSOEVER BELIEVES