ECT What is your definition of free will?

[andyc]

Good post! Permit me this adjustment:

"The sinner finds a way to relax the conscience in order to commit the act."

Since there is no warfare there is no battle with his "selfish" disposition made so by his being subjected to vanity that when tempted the door is easily opened for the devil to finish him off.

Whatta ya think?

Yes the world is deceived by the devil who makes use of fleshly lusts in order to counter the voice of conscience and provide excuses to justify sin. For example, man is an evolving animal, and therefore not accountable. What a lie that is. The fool says in his heart there is no God, but if we were all totally depraved, we'd all be fools.

 

[patrick jane]

Said this before multiple times, but oh boy people would get a revelation if they grasped this simple fact. Adam was NOT created as a spiritual being. He became a spiritual being when he ate of the forbidden fruit. This is where the majority of theologians go wrong.
Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and became a living being/soul (a physical flesh being). The reason he couldn't discern good and evil like God, is because he wasn't spiritual. Morality is a spiritual quality.
Physical man had dominion over the natural world, God is Spirit. By taking the fruit, Adam (on our behalf) rejected the physical in favor of the spiritual. And therefore everything physical is condemned in Adam.The pursuit of all men now, is a spiritual kingdom. Man must be accepted spiritually with God (made alive to God in the Spirit), enter Christ, in order for us to receive a spiritual kingdom. The kingdom of God.

Calvinism suffers greatly over this point, because if Adam was created righteous and spiritual, he was created with the ability to make moral choices. He would already have the knowledge of good and evil.
And so by sinning he would go from a state of being spiritually righteous, to being unrighteous. This state is irreversible. Calvinists themselves do not understand how this state can be reversed, and so it is left a mystery how God somehow manages it. You see, if a person i totally depraved, they are totally condemned without hope, because you cannot reverse the state of spiritual unrighteousness. This state is permanent.

Thanks god, for explaining Adam's spiritual beginning

 

[andyc]

Thanks god, for explaining Adam's spiritual beginning

When angels rejected their first estate/abode, they chose the carnal by rejecting the spiritual.
When man took the forbidden fruit, he chose the spiritual. To be like God knowing good and evil.
Angels were spirits, but chose flesh. Adam was flesh, but chose spirit.

Adam's desire to be like God knowing good and evil, is actually good. That's something you don't hear people mention. The thing is, how can a desire to have something that is forbidden be a good desire?
It's because the method of obtaining that which is good, is wrong. The forbidden fruit separated God from man, the physical from the spiritual. When physical man steps over into the spiritual, the physical is condemned. In the day you eat of it you will die (physically).
We were all born unrighteous, judged and condemned in Adam physically, even though there is nothing we did to cause it.
We are born spiritually into eternal life and justified in Christ, even though there is nothing we did to cause it. Everyone of us must choose the Spirit to live eternally. Without being born of the Spirit, we will not see the kingdom of God. Christ is the tree of life (spiritual life).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Eve was deceived spiritually.

o 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Adam could not say no to his flesh.

LA

 

[andyc]

Eve was deceived spiritually.

o 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Adam could not say no to his flesh.

LA

Everything was presented in the natural, though. Satan was in the form of a snake. Eve lusted with her eyes, and through the pride of life desired to be wise like God.
To know right from wrong is awesome, and through it we can appreciate the righteousness of God. But its a curse on the flesh.

 

[patrick jane]

When angels rejected their first estate/abode, they chose the carnal by rejecting the spiritual.
When man took the forbidden fruit, he chose the spiritual. To be like God knowing good and evil.
Angels were spirits, but chose flesh. Adam was flesh, but chose spirit.

Adam's desire to be like God knowing good and evil, is actually good. That's something you don't hear people mention. The thing is, how can a desire to have something that is forbidden be a good desire?
It's because the method of obtaining that which is good, is wrong. The forbidden fruit separated God from man, the physical from the spiritual. When physical man steps over into the spiritual, the physical is condemned. In the day you eat of it you will die (physically).
We were all born unrighteous, judged and condemned in Adam physically, even though there is nothing we did to cause it.
We are born spiritually into eternal life and justified in Christ, even though there is nothing we did to cause it. Everyone of us must choose the Spirit to live eternally. Without being born of the Spirit, we will not see the kingdom of God. Christ is the tree of life (spiritual life).

interesting interpretation, i think eve ate first. total pre-destination would imply that God knew this would happen. (i know, this thread and your post aren't about pre-destination, but wanted to make that point). beyond that, i agree with alot of what you said

 

[andyc]

interesting interpretation, i think eve ate first. total pre-destination would imply that God knew this would happen. (i know, this thread and your post aren't about pre-destination, but wanted to make that point). beyond that, i agree with alot of what you said

Interestingly, it wasn't until Adam ate, that their eyes were opened. Why wasn't Eve's eyes opened when she ate?
Obviously scripture is not talking about their physical eyes, as they could already see in the natural. The first thing they noticed was that they were naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we who are in this tent (physical body) groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed (spiritual body), that mortality may be swallowed up by life. (eternal life)


1Cor 15:45-50
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being (flesh)." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (source of spiritual life) 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural (flesh in Adam), and afterward the spiritual (Spirit in Christ). 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; (flesh) the second Man is the Lord from heaven (Spirit). 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust (flesh); and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly (spirit). 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[patrick jane]

Interestingly, it wasn't until Adam ate, that their eyes were opened. Why wasn't Eve's eyes opened when she ate?
Obviously scripture is not talking about their physical eyes, as they could already see in the natural. The first thing they noticed was that they were naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we who are in this tent (physical body) groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed (spiritual body), that mortality may be swallowed up by life. (eternal life)


1Cor 15:45-50
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being (flesh)." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (source of spiritual life) 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural (flesh in Adam), and afterward the spiritual (Spirit in Christ). 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; (flesh) the second Man is the Lord from heaven (Spirit). 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust (flesh); and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly (spirit). 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

yes, we do see that when we read it and understand the "big picture". these are the things i love focusing on. it's too bad i have to sleep in a bit. the last few days i'm finally seeing productive threads and posts. just timing maybe, but some things seem better.

 

[patrick jane]

Excuse me but the verse says THAT BY ONE MAN DEATH AND JUDGEMENT ENTERED THE WORLD ! not sin!!!!

<headshake, falcepalm>

wwwwhhhhhaaaaaaaaaattt ?

 

[Totton Linnet]

interesting interpretation, i think eve ate first. total pre-destination would imply that God knew this would happen. (i know, this thread and your post aren't about pre-destination, but wanted to make that point). beyond that, i agree with alot of what you said

It shows total foreknowledge, not total predestiny. Try to get this because it is tricky.

God did not predestine man to sin, He foreknew that he would. What God predestined was man's salvation knowing he would sin.

Everything in this age is predestined to take into account man's sin and reconciliation. Everything is created with that in mind.

If God had predestined sin that would make God to be the Author of sin....that is the worse doctrine I ever heard. James tells us that God cannot tempt anybody with evil. It is the far side of impossible.

He is the Father of lights.

 

[patrick jane]

It shows total foreknowledge, not total predestiny. Try to get this because it is tricky.

God did not predestine man to sin, He foreknew that he would. What God predestined was man's salvation knowing he would sin.

Everything in this age is predestined to take into account man's sin and reconciliation. Everything is created with that in mind.

If God had predestined sin that would make God to be the Author of sin....that is the worse doctrine I ever heard. James tells us that God cannot tempt anybody with evil. It is the far side of impossible.

He is the Father of lights.

i do understand that, and have said so in many posts, including tonight (last), in fact, less than half hour ago, different thread i think. God Bless

 

[beloved57]

What is your definition of free will?

Idolatry !

 

[oatmeal]

Idolatry !

that is your definition of free will.

What is your definition of bondage?

John 8:32

 

[beloved57]

that is your definition of free will.

What is your definition of bondage?

John 8:32

Yeah that is what the definition of freewill is to me, idolatry ! As for bondage, look it up, I believe it means bondage !

 

[oatmeal]

Yeah that is what the definition of freewill is to me, idolatry ! As for bondage, look it up, I believe it means bondage !

Since you do not believe God wants us to freely serve Him, it would seem you think we are in bondage to serve Him

But John 8:32, truth sets us free, from what? Bondage.

We have the free will to choose to serve God.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[Cross Reference]

Said this before multiple times, but oh boy people would get a revelation if they grasped this simple fact. Adam was NOT created as a spiritual being. He became a spiritual being when he ate of the forbidden fruit. This is where the majority of theologians go wrong.
Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and became a living being/soul (a physical flesh being). The reason he couldn't discern good and evil like God, is because he wasn't spiritual. Morality is a spiritual quality.

On this one foundational understanding, I can't agree, andyc. There was no "indwelling" of any Spirit, unless by eating of the tree of life. It was not required for Adam's initial obedience nor at this point in his life, his relationship with God.
Adam's relationship was one of a fully human, sinless plus nothing, created innocent, blameless and, purposed for fatherhood in God [1 John 2:14 KJV) to produce for Him "many sons brought unto glory", also sinlessly by eating of tree of life.. He had direct access into the presence of God for instructions and ultimately to eat of the "tree of life".. Upon his disobedience, he severed all possibility of ever having that relationship completed. His innocence and blamelessness was forfeited along with the opportunity to be lifted higher in the purposes of God culminating in the Word of God entering Adam's human flesh and thus destorying Satan.

Enter Jesus Christ 4k yrs later to rectify the situation.

For anyone disagreeing with my understanding, please be sure you read correctly and use scripture accurately in refuting what you can't accept. I am open for such correction.

 

[beloved57]

Since you do not believe God wants us to freely serve Him, it would seem you think we are in bondage to serve Him

But John 8:32, truth sets us free, from what? Bondage.

We have the free will to choose to serve God.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Since when did you believe in God ?

 

[andyc]

On this one foundational understanding, I can't agree, andyc. There was no "indwelling" of any Spirit, unless by eating of the tree of life. It was not required for Adam's initial obedience nor at this point in his life, his relationship with God.
Adam's relationship was one of a fully human, sinless plus nothing, created innocent, blameless and, purposed for fatherhood in God [1 John 2:14 KJV) to produce for Him "many sons brought unto glory", also sinlessly by eating of tree of life.. He had direct access into the presence of God for instructions and ultimately to eat of the "tree of life".. Upon his disobedience, he severed all possibility of ever having that relationship completed. His innocence and blamelessness was forfeited along with the opportunity to be lifted higher in the purposes of God culminating in the Word of God entering Adam's human flesh and thus destorying Satan.

Enter Jesus Christ 4k yrs later to rectify the situation.

For anyone disagreeing with my understanding, please be sure you read correctly and use scripture accurately in refuting what you can't accept. I am open for such correction.

I can't see a specific area where you are disagreeing. Yes Adam was created in a state of innocence. He was morally innocent because he was not spiritual. He had no knowledge of good and evil, and therefore had no capacity to choose for or against.

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes the world is deceived by the devil who makes use of fleshly lusts in order to counter the voice of conscience and provide excuses to justify sin. For example, man is an evolving animal, and therefore not accountable. What a lie that is. The fool says in his heart there is no God, but if we were all totally depraved, we'd all be fools.

Amen! It is time good folk in Christ to come to realize the battle is more against our own fleshly lusts and not Satan who only capitalizes on them when we don't submit to God in Whom we can only then begin to resist him. (Jas.4:7 KJV) See also Psalm 3:1-8 KJV __all of it.

 

[nikolai_42]

From your own logic, you are concluding that the will is free but can be limited to the choices available, even before the fall. If this is the case before the fall also, a sin act may not always be driven by an inner sin propensity.
Therefore we can say that the will is totally free while under no obligation to choose, but also free to choose when weighing up the pros and cons from the options available.
Therefore Adams's disobedience did not lead to an inherited sin propensity, but rather opened the door to multiple choices as a result of our inheriting the knowledge of good and evil from Adam. Children are born innocent of the personal act of sin, because they do not yet have the ability to discern good and evil and are therefore not obligated to make right and wrong choices.

What a lot of people can't seem to get their head around (because doctrine clouds the issue), is that our being born sinners is not because of an inherited a sin nature giving us a propensity for sin, but rather we are born into the world with an ability to discern good and evil. This characteristic of God was illegally obtained by Adam on behalf of mankind, and therefore we inherit the same condemnation and judgement. And so the sin nature has to do with how a person justifies what they know is wrong. For example, we are told that a specific act is morally wrong, but there is a desire to do it. I want to do it, but how can I justify myself for doing it? The sinner finds a way to relax the conscience in order to commit the act.

Can you choose how your heart responds to things (lust, hatred, envy etc...)? I'm not talking about actions here, but the inner, first response of the heart.