ECT What is your definition of free will?

ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
All FREE means is uncoerced: a free will is uncoerced for and uncoerced against a viable option. IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion (for) or constraints (against) upon their choices, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their own desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality by defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
nikolai_42 said:
To the addict, he knows he will have freedom if he turns away from it. Still, he returns to his addiction. He is in bondage to it. How much more, then, are we naturally in bondage to sin?
Click to expand...

That is what spiritual warfare is all about, isn't it? Jesus was tempted in all ways as man yet without sin. Jesus overcame. How did He do that is the same way we are given to accomplish what He accomplished. That is what being tempted is all about and the reason for a strong spiritual relationship with God through Christ, such a necessity.

"Let him who thinks he stands . . . . . ". "Draw neigh unto Me . . . . . . . . ". "He who overcomes I will . . . . . . " ...Jesus.
 
Last edited:
D

DAN P

Well-known member
oatmeal said:
Man, even a man in bondage to our adversary,can and does turn to God because he realizes that there has to be more to life, no man has any excuse to deny God, Romans 1:20

Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

I Thessalonians 1:9

For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Deuteronomy 30:19

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Who here has the will to do things in their life?

Who here will freely and willfully offer up their definition of free will?

Who is willing, besides me, to define what they mean by free will?

Has anyone posting here defined free will besides me?

What is your definition of free will?
Click to expand...


Hi and who has " free will " no one !!

Buying a car , house , clothes IS NOT FREE WILL !!

#1 , The angels in heaven had Free Will !

#2 , Adam and Eve had Free Will !

#3, Lucifer had Free Will !!

All fell because they made BAD Choices !!

The reason we do not have so-called Free Will , is because we are dead in Trespasses and sin !!

dan p
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
nikolai_42 said:
Upon what are your choices based? Can you choose against your will?
Click to expand...

What choices are you aware of? Those are the choices that you know you have. Could there be more choices that you do not know of? Yes, there most certainly can be. Could a person decide to base a decision only on the choices that he is aware of? Most certainly. Could that person also have learned that he is not all knowing, there fore is willing to seek out more options?

Can you touch you nose with your elbow?

You can choose anything you want to, whether the choices are viable, genuine, reasonable, attainable or not.

Yes, if you break your upper arm bone in the right places.

Are you asking can a man be stubborn?

Can a man be forced against his will to do something?

Can a man willfully choose to alter, revise, revamp, rethink, rechoose, redecide what he wills to choose?

If someone put a gun to a loved ones head, you might be coerced to choose against reason against what is right, but your will is your will.

In dire circumstances, someone could coerce you to change your mind. and if you change your mind, and heart, you change your will.

A person's will is closely associated with a person's believing and thus works. If you will to have a bowl of ice cream, you will believe to do so, the evidence that you are believing to do so, is getting up and getting yourself a bowl of ice cream.

If your will 30 seconds before that was to be on a weight reduction plan, then you choose to get a large bowl of ice cream, either you changed your will or your plan to reduce your weight was not your will, only a thought. Unless someone put a gun to your head or a loved one's head and told you that you are going to eat a bowl of ice cream or the trigger gets pulled. You might succumb to someone else's will in those circumstances.

Exercising your will is not the same as choosing what you will.
 
TulipBee

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Free will is dead

rip.jpg
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
HisServant said:
Free will has to do with the options one has based on the constraints of creation and their own world view.

I cannot chose to be a walrus.. or an elephant.. or a fish.

I cannot chose to live on some far off planet in a distant galaxy.

The universe confines us by a definite set of rules.

We are limited.

In much the same way we are unable to chose our own salvation, because it is not a choice available to use. Salvation is a gift of God whereas he chooses us because only he is able to make that choice.
Click to expand...

That is right, we can choose to become something we are incapable of becoming, but choosing and implementing are not the same.

Can you choose to read scripture? Who implements that choice? you or God?

Or does God choose that for you? or do you choose to read scripture and implement that choice?

In your view,

Are those who God chooses to salvation also chosen to have exactly the same take on scripture?

Why not? Why would God stop at salvation? Philippians 2:2 why can't God choose that all Christians are perfectly doing Philippians 2:2?
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
nikolai_42 said:
Presumably, then, an addict is not in his right mind. If we are in bondage to (addicted to) sin, then doesn't that include anyone who is not in Christ? An addict certainly is "free" not to do that which he is "addicted" to, isn't he (playing on the broad definition of "free" here)? There are those addicts who are addicts and don't care about quitting - but then there are those addicts who want to quit but can't. Do they have free will? Or would you say that the only difference between them and the "willing" addicts is that they (those who want to quit but can't) have deceived themselves?

We have Jesus making our "addictions to sin" far more deep seated even than that...lust/adultery...unjust hatred/murder etc...Can an unregenerate man choose not to lust? Can he rid himself of the hate in his heart?
Click to expand...

People choose to use drugs in most circumstances.

If they knew what the results of their choices were, they would have knowingly relinquished some of their freedom to choose.

Hence, God, who wants people to make right decisions, does not condone willful drunkenness and druggedness. Ephesians 4:18, Galatians 5:20, witchcraft is pharmekeia
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
dreadknought said:
If God desires all men to be saved, litreally, then there are problems. Not everyone has heard a Gospel presentation. Those that do not hear the Gospel still stand under judgment, have been for quite some time......... can't put that on God's people for lack of missions, nor is it on YHWH for a lack of effectual grace.
Click to expand...

Romans 1:20
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
Squeaky said:
MANS WILL(FREE) MAN HAS THE WILL BUT NOT THE WAY

2 Cor 8:12
12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
Col 3:5-6
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
Jude 1:19
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
Jude 1:16
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
2 Cor 6:12
12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own passions
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
1 Tim 6:4-5
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Rom 8:20
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 9:16-18
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Rom 9:23
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 11:32-33
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
Heb 10:26
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Rom 9:19-21
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:33
33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
Heb 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- in the volume of the book it is written of Me-- to do Your will, O God.' "
Phil 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Eph 5:17
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Rom 7:15-21
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
John 14:1
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
John 14:5-6
5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 5:23
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
I Jn 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
John 14:16
16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Titus 1:7
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
2 Pet 2:19
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
1 Cor 7:23
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
Rom 6:5-6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:16-20
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21-23
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Acts 17:27-29
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
(NKJ)

XXX We have an inner man, and an outer person. Our inner man is our spirit(mind of our inner man) and soul(body of our inner man). Our spirit makes all the decisions on who and what to believe, our soul is where our affections come from. Our outer person is where our flesh and emotions(unclean spirits) live with our guardian angel, the devil, and if we are blessed the Holy Spirit lives. Our inner man is who is going to be held responsible on judgment day. For who it submitted to. Our will is our desires to do what is right.They get covered up pushed back and blocked by our flesh. Desire is not an absolute. And will is desire. That that I will to do I do not do(Without Gods help) that that I will not to do is what I do (because of emotions, unclean spirits). So you are free to will it, but how to perform it has to come from God. So we have choices and we have free will. What we dont have is ability. We need God for ability. Now the big question is how to get God to help us. Prayer, humility, submission, changing our beliefs. One step or verse at a time.



Rom 7:11-25
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(NKJ)

xxx God didnt give us our emotions, we enherited them from our parents. But they are the reason we dont have ability to do our will.

John 6:44-45
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
(NKJ)

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
(NKJ)


2 Cor 8:1-3
1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia:
2 that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality.
3 For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing,
(NKJ)
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
ttruscott said:
All FREE means is uncoerced: a free will is uncoerced for and uncoerced against a viable option. IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion (for) or constraints (against) upon their choices, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their own desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality by defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted
Click to expand...

Thanks for your definition.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
DAN P said:
Hi and who has " free will " no one !!

Buying a car , house , clothes IS NOT FREE WILL !!

#1 , The angels in heaven had Free Will !

#2 , Adam and Eve had Free Will !

#3, Lucifer had Free Will !!

All fell because they made BAD Choices !!

The reason we do not have so-called Free Will , is because we are dead in Trespasses and sin !!

dan p
Click to expand...

So, what is your definition of what you say does not exist?

There is no freedom?

There is no will?

John 8:32

Did you read my OP?

Choose you this day whom you serve?

Was Joshua wrong to tell them to choose?

Was Moses wrong to tell them to choose?

How would you convince both Moses and Joshua that they are wrong?

Deuteronomy 30:19

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top