What is the Gospel?

[glorydaz]

Fairy tales, by name and subject, deal with things outside our grasp. That doesn't mean none are true, unless we are fully grasping of all things. But most of the bible, in my opinion, reads much different from a fairy tale, including the books that contain those things that sound fairy-tale-ish. It is reported matter-of-factly, and though there is currently little or no proof of many of the events recorded, many have been verified by archeology and science, and the list grows daily. (If miracles bother you, C.S. Lewis's "Miracles" is worth the read.)

Faith in Christ is definitely not simple and easy. It involves taking up our cross daily (Luke 9:23); it involves counting the cost (Luke 14:28); it involves persecution (2Tim 3:12); it means loving those that are promised to hate you (Matt 5:44 and Matt 10:22). It means ridicule--sometimes by people who call truth a fable, and we don't always have a decent answer to their critiques. It may mean death of our bodies, but only our bodies (Matt 10:28). It definitely means resurrection of our bodies!

But it's available to the weakest, sickest, most vulnerable among us--and if they can handle it, perhaps we able-bodied and able-minded can, too.

I love the way you put this, Derf, but I have to disagree just a bit. Another point of view, if you will.

There is more to the "Good news" than just our life after death. Peace and assurance during this life is beyond anything an unbeliever can ever imagine. The REST which comes when we don't have to carry our own burdens. "Jesus is a rock in the weary land....A shelter in the time of storm." There was a time, before the Comforter was sent to dwell in us, that we had to take up our cross daily. But, the Comforter has come.

Whether we believe or not, this life will be difficult and filled with pain and suffering. What makes it tolerable, and even blessed is our faith in Christ. We can actually glory in tribulations, because we know we are being conformed into His image. It's that peace that passes all understanding....given when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our hearts. If anyone is looking for rest and peace, they will only find it in the shelter of His Arms.

 

[Derf]

I love the way you put this, Derf, but I have to disagree just a bit. Another point of view, if you will.

There is more to the "Good news" than just our life after death. Peace and assurance during this life is beyond anything an unbeliever can ever imagine. The REST which comes when we don't have to carry our own burdens. "Jesus is a rock in the weary land....A shelter in the time of storm." There was a time, before the Comforter was sent to dwell in us, that we had to take up our cross daily. But, the Comforter has come.

Whether we believe or not, this life will be difficult and filled with pain and suffering. What makes it tolerable, and even blessed is our faith in Christ. We can actually glory in tribulations, because we know we are being conformed into His image. It's that peace that passes all understanding....given when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our hearts. If anyone is looking for rest and peace, they will only find it in the shelter of His Arms.

I agree. There's no question that what Jesus offers us is for this life and the one to come--Mark 10:29-30 and Luke 18:29-30. Both of those end with the appeal to an everlasting life, however, and the following seems to indicate that the focus is more on the everlasting part of life:
[Jhn 6:40 NKJV]
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

While that is comforting for the future, it is also very comforting for the present--allowing us to be able to lose our lives in the midst of preserving them! Luk 17:33.

If the main thing Jesus came to earth for was to save us from the penalty of sin, and the penalty of sin is death, and especially if we recognize that our bodies will still die after knowing Christ, then it seems like the future state is certainly the more important one. And the certainty of it brings peace in this life. Fear not them which kill the body...

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. There's no question that what Jesus offers us is for this life and the one to come--Mark 10:29-30 and Luke 18:29-30. Both of those end with the appeal to an everlasting life, however, and the following seems to indicate that the focus is more on the everlasting part of life:
[Jhn 6:40 NKJV]
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

While that is comforting for the future, it is also very comforting for the present--allowing us to be able to lose our lives in the midst of preserving them! Luk 17:33.

If the main thing Jesus came to earth for was to save us from the penalty of sin, and the penalty of sin is death, and especially if we recognize that our bodies will still die after knowing Christ, then it seems like the future state is certainly the more important one. And the certainty of it brings peace in this life. Fear not them which kill the body...

And that "fear of death" is certainly what draws men to seek God to begin with. We all know it. It never left us before we were saved. Talk about bondage!

Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.​

It's one reason I can't agree with the contention that men do not seek God. They do, and this is why....the fear of death.

 

[meshak]

It's hard to know what to believe Derf.

Why don't you read what Jesus has to say yourself instead of getting third opinions.

 

[Lon]

2 Corinthians 5:20 Apply to you? If yes, be reconciled! If not, move along...

Imho, this meets and exceeds the expectation of the thread.

3 questions:
1) Do you need salvation? -No Done. Yes -go to question 2
2) Can you save yourself? -Yes Done. No- go to question 3
3) Do you want the Salvation of God? -Yes Call on the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. -No

 

[Sonnet]

Fairy tales, by name and subject, deal with things outside our grasp. That doesn't mean none are true, unless we are fully grasping of all things. But most of the bible, in my opinion, reads much different from a fairy tale, including the books that contain those things that sound fairy-tale-ish. It is reported matter-of-factly, and though there is currently little or no proof of many of the events recorded, many have been verified by archeology and science, and the list grows daily. (If miracles bother you, C.S. Lewis's "Miracles" is worth the read.)

Faith in Christ is definitely not simple and easy. It involves taking up our cross daily (Luke 9:23); it involves counting the cost (Luke 14:28); it involves persecution (2Tim 3:12); it means loving those that are promised to hate you (Matt 5:44 and Matt 10:22). It means ridicule--sometimes by people who call truth a fable, and we don't always have a decent answer to their critiques. It may mean death of our bodies, but only our bodies (Matt 10:28). It definitely means resurrection of our bodies!

But it's available to the weakest, sickest, most vulnerable among us--and if they can handle it, perhaps we able-bodied and able-minded can, too.

Thanks. That you acknowledge my point('books that contain those things that sound fairy-tale-ish') is very honest of you. It is true that non-Christians openly mock those who believe in the creation account given in 'Genesis' - no doubt emboldened by neo-Darwinism.

Certainly, the miracles Jesus is said to have performed seem more credible than some we read of in the OT. I'll try and have a look at the book you linked to (though I believe Lewis considered Jesus in error regarding Matthew 24:34).

 

[Sonnet]

Yeah, it's a dichotomy of sorts, isn't it? And that's why we can't just look at any one verse when discussing the Bible, but be open to the full counsel of God.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.​

"Reconciled by His death....." Romans 5:10

But there would be no need for God to beseech men to BE RECONCILED if all men were reconciled.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

That Paul readily stated that 'By this Gospel you are saved...' (1 Cor. 15:2) and then proceeded to explicitly recapitulate what that was is a problem for you isn't it? Any non-believer wondering what the Gospel is, and reading these words of Paul, would not think they did not apply to him or herself. Nobody would. Reading v.11 confirms it. It is what he and the apostles preached.

 

[Nihilo]

The Gospel was announced in advance, as you will know and that same Gospel - that of faith - was exercised by Abraham. Paul contrasts such faith with the curse of trying to achieve righteousness through works of the law.

It's still the same Gospel.

Irrespective of all the differing and conflicting views of the Gospel expressed here and throughout the Christian world, I don't see faith in Christ as simple and easy. Some of scripture reads like a fairy tale to me.

If Easter is nonfiction, then the whole Christian faith is nonfiction, and if Easter is fictional, then the whole Christian faith is a crazy joke. You can trust that. You can choose, on that one point. Either take that leap of faith, or don't, but don't listen to whatever is making you think that it's anything other than simple and easy.

Hebrews 11
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

His day is Easter. 2nd Timothy 2:8 (KJV) " 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: "

 

[Sonnet]

How can it be the same Gospel?

Abraham was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and those who believe Paul's Gospel of Grace are.

Your proof is what?

 

[Sonnet]

If Easter is nonfiction, then the whole Christian faith is nonfiction, and if Easter is fictional, then the whole Christian faith is a crazy joke. You can trust that. You can choose, on that one point. Either take that leap of faith, or don't, but don't listen to whatever is making you think that it's anything other than simple and easy.
His day is Easter. 2nd Timothy 2:8 (KJV) " 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: "

I always wonder about the exact nature of the God / Abraham exchange.
I remain troubled by what you suggest I shouldn't be.

 

[Lon]

Irrespective of all the differing and conflicting views of the Gospel

:think: so it isn't just "Calvinism" that hangs you up....

Irrespective

Why pit one group against the other then???? It seems some of the accusations against you are founded doesn't it? Wasn't Musterion, for instance, right?

Some of scripture reads like a fairy tale to me.

So do science results. The first time I saw a human ear on a mouse, or a glowing green rabbit, for instance. :think:

"You believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The Gospel is already incredible enough. It doesn't matter what someone believes or disbelieves after, the Cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, but to those who believe, it is the sound of life and the Power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

Wake up Sonnet
Joshua 24:15 Romans 10:13 2 Corinthians 6:2

 

[Nihilo]

The bronze serpent wasn't raised from the dead...he was lifted up.

That Jesus was lifted up is speaking of his death on the cross.

John 12:31-33
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.​

He came to die. Jesus apparently thought it was His death that was paramount. "All men"....are drawn to the Lord through the "preaching of the cross".

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.​

Also John 3:14 KJV "14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"
And John 8:28 KJV "28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. "
And 1st Corinthians 2:2 KJV " 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. "

And in the light of all this, all I can think of is where this notion of reminding us of the cross is most prominent; how every Catholic parish church I've ever been in, has a beautiful crucifix somewhere, and how easy the Church makes it for anybody to imagine exactly what all these verses are talking about. He was lifted up like the brazen serpent, on a Roman cross, nailed to it and hung there, INRI. You have your crucifix on your rosary, and some people wear a crucifix, and some people wear their rosary, and I see a lot of people hanging rosaries from their rear-view mirrors in their cars.

The deeper you go into Scripture, the more Catholic you realize you already are. Paul played a supreme role in building her, so it should not be any surprise.

 

[Nihilo]

I always wonder about the exact nature of the God / Abraham exchange.
I remain troubled by what you suggest I shouldn't be.

That you shouldn't listen to whatever is making you think that this decision is anything other than simple and easy?

Maybe it's not easy, I can grant that, but I cannot grant that it's not simple. I believe that since you're spending so much time here, that you either already believe Easter and are thus already a believer, or you're a troll. I don't know which. But you're not a seeker. You think you are, or you're a troll, but in either case, you are not a seeker.

 

[Nihilo]

What's tough is believing, and not knowing what to do with your faith. You're at extreme odds with the rest of the world. They are all absolutely horrible people in some way, and you believe Easter is nonfiction, what do you do? Remember, is the advice given, that's what the Lord's Supper's about. It's something Catholics do every day, three times on Sunday, the day the Church remembers Easter every week. Remember, remember the cross, remember Him on the cross, remember the tomb, remember it empty, remember Easter, remember.

 

[glorydaz]

That Paul readily stated that 'By this Gospel you are saved...' (1 Cor. 15:2) and then proceeded to explicitly recapitulate what that was is a problem for you isn't it? Any non-believer wondering what the Gospel is, and reading these words of Paul, would not think they did not apply to him or herself. Nobody would. Reading v.11 confirms it. It is what he and the apostles preached.

Nope, it's not a problem for me at all, because I didn't start at verse 2 or 3 or 4. I didn't skip any words at all. I actually pay attention to every single word that is written. Not a one of them can be ignored, as you keep trying to do. Nor do I claim the entire Gospel is found in this chapter. It isn't, as I have been trying to tell you from the start. And it's why Paul reminds them of what he had said before. You want to pretend that nothing was said before. :idunno:

Paul specifically reminds them of what he had preached before. There is more to the Gospel than the dbr of Christ. There is the justification of faith...not mentioned in 1 Cor. 15 BECAUSE he moves on to his teaching on the resurrection. You don't see confessing Jesus as Lord there either, do you? You don't see salvation by Grace through faith there, either, do you?


But you do see justification of faith preached here. That's a major part of the Gospel.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

If what you see here in 1 Cor. was the entire Gospel, you'd have a reason to complain. But it isn't.

1 Corinthians 15:1
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Cor. 15:2-4 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

 

[glorydaz]

Your proof is what?

Jesus told us the Comforter could not come until He had ascended to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

 

[Sonnet]

:think: so it isn't just "Calvinism" that hangs you up....

That's correct Lon.

Why pit one group against the other then???? It seems some of the accusations against you are founded doesn't it? Wasn't Musterion, for instance, right?

I am asking for an unambiguous articulation of the Gospel, that's all.

So do science results. The first time I saw a human ear on a mouse, or a glowing green rabbit, for instance. :think:

"You believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The Gospel is already incredible enough. It doesn't matter what someone believes or disbelieves after, the Cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, but to those who believe, it is the sound of life and the Power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

Wake up Sonnet
Joshua 24:15 Romans 10:13 2 Corinthians 6:2

That Christians can't agree whether Christ died for all or not is a crisis I'd say - and should be dealt with.

 

[Sonnet]

Jesus told us the Comforter could not come until He had ascended to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

Nothing explicit here. But even if you are right Abraham spoke with God...and faith is still required.

 

[Sonnet]

That you shouldn't listen to whatever is making you think that this decision is anything other than simple and easy?

Maybe it's not easy, I can grant that, but I cannot grant that it's not simple. I believe that since you're spending so much time here, that you either already believe Easter and are thus already a believer, or you're a troll. I don't know which. But you're not a seeker. You think you are, or you're a troll, but in either case, you are not a seeker.

That you think I could be a troll is saddening.

 

[Sonnet]

Nope, it's not a problem for me at all, because I didn't start at verse 2 or 3 or 4. I didn't skip any words at all. I actually pay attention to every single word that is written. Not a one of them can be ignored, as you keep trying to do. Nor do I claim the entire Gospel is found in this chapter. It isn't, as I have been trying to tell you from the start. And it's why Paul reminds them of what he had said before. You want to pretend that nothing was said before. :idunno:

Paul tells them the essence of what was said before:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


You won't / refuse to tell the world the first bit. Paul names it as the Gospel.

Paul specifically reminds them of what he had preached before. There is more to the Gospel than the dbr of Christ. There is the justification of faith...not mentioned in 1 Cor. 15

v.2 By this gospel you are saved
v.11 and this is what you believed.

No mention of justification, but it was enough to say that belief brought salvation.

BECAUSE he moves on to his teaching on the resurrection. You don't see confessing Jesus as Lord there either, do you? You don't see salvation by Grace through faith there, either, do you?

Paul is stating the essential elements but does state the equivalent of 'salvation through faith' in v.2

But you do see justification of faith preached here. That's a major part of the Gospel.

And?

If what you see here in 1 Cor. was the entire Gospel, you'd have a reason to complain. But it isn't.

1 Corinthians 15:1
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Cor. 15:2-4 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

You are refusing to believe in Paul's summation of the essential elements of the Gospel and you will not tell the world 'Christ died for our sins' as Paul did.