What is the Gospel?

Truster

New member
PS To attribute the necessity of design to the Eternal Almighty is to bring Him down to the level of man..."I've had a great idea" kind of man. The Eternal Almighty does not have "good ideas".


For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the YAH VEH.​
 

Sonnet

New member
Does this accurately describe Scripture / the reformed position?

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish. - Mark Webb
 

Truster

New member
Does this accurately describe Scripture / the reformed position?

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish. - Mark Webb

On the surface, it might look good, but part of it is the stuff of cartoons:

"Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come".

This gives the impression that election is based on choices made in time. Election is eternal and was set before the creation of the heavens and earth. Election is not based on what a man may or may not do. Rather, what man does is based on the electing grace of Elohim.

PS Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
 

Sonnet

New member
On the surface, it might look good, but part of it is the stuff of cartoons:

"Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come".

This gives the impression that election is based on choices made in time. Election is eternal and was set before the creation of the heavens and earth. Election is not based on what a man may or may not do. Rather, what man does is based on the electing grace of Elohim.

Thanks.

So, also, your view is that each and everyone of us is born with this inheritance of total depravity such that, without election, none will be saved? Is that your understanding of Scripture?
 

Truster

New member
Thanks.

So, also, your view is that each and everyone of us is born with this inheritance of total depravity such that, without election, none will be saved? Is that your understanding of Scripture?

Sonnet, that was my experience before I picked up a Bible. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved. At 10:30am on July 17th 1999 I was dragged kicking and screaming out of darkness and into glorious light. Amen.

From that moment on it was as if I was connected by broadband to my Creator, Saviour and King. Not that dial up stuff but completely connected.

Scripture confirmed what I had experienced.
 

Sonnet

New member
Sonnet, that was my experience before I picked up a Bible. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved. At 10:30am on July 17th 1999 I was dragged kicking and screaming out of darkness and into glorious light. Amen.

From that moment on it was as if I was connected by broadband to my Creator, Saviour and King. Not that dial up stuff but completely connected.

I see.
 

Sonnet

New member
It is my hope and prayer that one day you will truly see.

But all I perceive is a Church riven in dispute over even the very essence of the central Christian message.

I understand that you don't consider Arminian's real Christians (at least I think that's your position) so that you can say there is no schism and I guess the same would be said from the other side.
 

Hawkins

Active member
My post about clarification was concerning the language of Ephesians 1:4,5. It appears to support the Calvin position.

Calvinism is about the one perspective of trying to give an explanation of what predestination is. It's not a second version of what the gospel is. It's almost all about the term predestination. How we are predestined is God's business, you need to accept that humans are not omniscient to know everything which God knows. In the end, Calvinism is just an explanation from a human's understanding and most likely it's wrong (just as any another human speculation).

That said. God knows who is who even before the creation. However it's not legitimate for God to take whoever He knows as righteous to Heaven. A final judgment is needed under an open and well witnessed process for God to bring His known Elect to heaven. The end result somehow is that whoever God knew before hand (as named in the Book of Life) as the righteous will be brought legitimately to Heaven under the openly witnessed process and through the open final judgment. How so is thus the core of what predestination is.
 

Truster

New member
But all I perceive is a Church riven in dispute over even the very essence of the central Christian message.

I understand that you don't consider Arminian's real Christians (at least I think that's your position) so that you can say there is no schism and I guess the same would be said from the other side.

I don't consider those that call themselves Calvinists to be converted either. The denominations cause disunity and are the gates of hell. Anyone belonging to a denomination would not be able to stay within if they were converted. They would be broken by the lies and hypocrisy and would answer the call to,"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues".

"...I will build my ecclesia; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

Whatever goes on within denominations will never prevent the work of Messiah Yah Shua in building His ecclesia.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
Spurgeon said it is the Gospel.

Indeed... he did. Personally... John 5:39 will forever be sufficient for me... and I know it is for you, as well... I forever appreciate your simplicity in proclaiming the DBR without fetter or limit.

As I know Lon sees thing marginally different in the scheme... he, you and I have a compassion for all human beings that seems to be collectively burned within our souls...

I know who put that there and I am thankful...

All my best...
 
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Lon

Well-known member
Hi Lon - good to speak again...and on the same subject as many months back :)

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5107603&viewfull=1#post5107603



Then is it wise to allow those that argue that Christ did not provide for all to speak as accepted Christians - and thus contradicting the Gospel? - to the point where the is no Gospel?
His/their concern is that the truth be preached and they (and I) are of the mind that Truth trumps mistruth/lies. While we are to silence lies, I think we 'best' do so by truth rather than censorship. That said, I think you do have a leg to stand on with censorship, just not on TOL specifically because it desires to foster most discussion topics.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Ta. I have seen this before and even made such an argument myself (I used to be - or thought I was a believer once).
So, are you concerned that lack of faith keeps you from God? Some great sin? Doubt? We can't read your mind, but can discern some of the things you say. I'm glad you choose to wrestle with God. There is a desire in you. Either you are wrestling against Him, or trying to wrestle for Him, for your faith. Either is Good: God wins. It isn't just by might, but by the concern. While many here worry about you, I am not as worried. You cannot wrestle long with God without God winning over your soul and you've been doing this awhile now and keep coming back. I've been in similar shoes. I was convinced that for God to be God, from scriptures, He has to be faithful when we are faithless. To me, it appears that you are in a season of your soul, for whatever reason, and are in need of finding God in this place, during this season. Keep pressing after Him. -Lon
 
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