Sonnet
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I appreciate this my friend but it seems to me that Calvinists are justified in their reasoning - which, after all, is from scripture itself. Romans 9, 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4,5 and elsewhere remain difficult.
What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
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I appreciate this my friend but it seems to me that Calvinists are justified in their reasoning - which, after all, is from scripture itself. Romans 9, 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4,5 and elsewhere remain difficult.
Sonnet
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Thanks.
Sonnet
New member
Hi Lon - good to speak again...and on the same subject as many months back
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5107603&viewfull=1#post5107603
Then is it wise to allow those that argue that Christ did not provide for all to speak as accepted Christians - and thus contradicting the Gospel? - to the point where the is no Gospel?
Ask Mr. Religion
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We've been down this road many times in the past. Actually, we Calvinist do not argue, we simply affirm what Scripture teaches about the dire state of all those in Adam.
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...cs-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4559007#post4559007
And by the way:
Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel".
There may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.
Beloved, sentences in the scriptures are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.
For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.
In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.
If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.
At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...
(1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
(2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
(3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
(4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
(5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
(6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
(7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
(8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.
The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Rather, as did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God.
AMR
Sonnet
New member
Thanks AMR - indeed we touched on this before...
Just reading through your links...
Meantime - is there anything about this post that needs correcting?
(edit: I should have explicitly said: ie my response regarding the Calvinist position on election, regeneration and depravity).
Last edited:
glorydaz
Well-known member
There is one Elect ONE, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 42:1KJV
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Those chosen before the foundation are all those "whosoever believeth" members of His body. He is elect, and we are only elect because of our position in Him.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The question then becomes, how do we get in Him? We are created IN HIM when we are saved by Grace through faith. How can we believe unless we hear? How can we hear without a preacher? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is where the Gospel comes in. There would be no need of the Gospel if we were chosen before the foundation because we were elect. I believe this was speaking of the eternal purpose spoken of here....
Eph. 3:9-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Sonnet
New member
Ta. I have seen this before and even made such an argument myself (I used to be - or thought I was a believer once).
The language (of Ephesians) still remains difficult, though - to me. I have a feeling that the author could, had he so wished, clarified any possible confusion that might have arisen. And if we assume that God inspired verse (as Scripture says it does) and that God is omniscient (knowing therefore what would happen at the reformation and the Calvin / Arminius debate), then why choose such words?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I personally think it's so the Gospel would always be paramount. The Gospel....believing unto salvation. Men have a bad habit of rejecting the simplicity of the Gospel.
Why does Paul call it a mystery? I don't know, but perhaps it had something to do with it remaining a secret until the Jews had rejected their Messiah....something to do with provoking them to jealousy. Israel was the elect nation worshipping the One true God. It's interesting how the greater privilege was actually becoming members of Christ's body....the ELECT ONE. They stumbled over the Rock of Offense.
Col. 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Sonnet
New member
My post about clarification was concerning the language of Ephesians 1:4,5. It appears to support the Calvin position.
Paul's position, as revealed to him by grace.
Sonnet
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It would seem so. That with Romans 9, 8:28-30, 1 Peter 2:9 and elsewhere makes a strong case for such a stance.
Absolute truth and absolute sovereignty is not a stance Sonnet. It's an absolute, revealed by grace, fact.
Sonnet
New member
You may well be understanding scripture correctly.
beloved57
Well-known member
False teaching, Christ is Elect is True, however He is the Head of His Body the Church, they are One. You cant have the Head to be Elect and not His Chosen Members, His Body the Church, thats an deformed Christ !
beloved57
Well-known member
The Gospel is the proclamation of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Who He is, what He accomplished and for whom He accomplished it. The scriptures states all these things. Now that said, the natural man cannot receive the Gospel Truths, they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14 also the lost person cant believe the Gospel because it is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3
3 [FONT="]But if [/FONT][FONT="]our gospel [/FONT][FONT="]be hid, it [/FONT][FONT="]is hid to them that are lost:[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
3 [FONT="]But if [/FONT][FONT="]our gospel [/FONT][FONT="]be hid, it [/FONT][FONT="]is hid to them that are lost:[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
...and that would be by grace.
That is all it is for you. It's something you've heard about, talked about, written about but you have never experienced the power contained within the Evangelism.
Paul spoke of the power and not the bare word. Romans 1
Man is called to boast of the grace he has received...
"That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in Yah Veh". Paul.
"but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am Yah Veh, who exercises kindness, justice and justness on earth, for in these I delight," declares Yah Veh."
Jeremiah."but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am Yah Veh, who exercises kindness, justice and justness on earth, for in these I delight," declares Yah Veh."
...and to declare his salvation is all of grace.
I'm very uncomfortable with the word "designed". Salvation originates in the attributes of the Eternal Almighty. Salvation is so much a part of Him that there is no room nor requirement for any "design". In fact, if He is said to have designed salvation then salvation would be seen as something that was concocted.
Yah Shua actually means Eternal Salvation or Saviour and as He is eternal then so is salvation. No design necessary.
I know that your buddy has great difficulty with time/eternity so ponder this mystery yourself.