What is the Gospel?

[glorydaz]

This remains shocking:

13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Esau is Edom, and that is what God is talking about. The nations that would come....two nations were in her womb.

Genesis 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.​

It's always according to what men or nations DO, and the potter verses make that clear when read in context. You'll also find that God only hardens an already hard heart (in the Pharaoh example).

 

[Danoh]

Under Calvinism, inherited total depravity means no one is able to respond to God and He only chooses certain individuals to regenerate so that they can. Those passed by have no access to eternal life. Calvinists would cite Esau is such an individual.

Are the lost born with the inability to decide to believe a thing is or is not?

Are the lost unable to decide to believe that their place of employment will be there on Monday, after the weekend off?

Are the lost able to decide to believe that what that Gideon Bible they found there in that hotel room says about the Cross is true or false?

That is all faith is, as depicted both in Scripture, and in everyday life.

A deciding to believe a thing is so, regardless of whether or not, it actually is, and or regardless of what empirical evidence one may, or may not have...

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

THIS is what is meant by the simple expression "MAKE a DECISION FOR...Christ."

It refers to the same exact DECIDING TO believe that I am about to make about my sending this post, just before I send it - that it WILL get through.

Whether or not "the server is full" my above is my DECISION TO believe it WILL post...

 

[Danoh]

Well look at that - said deciding to...bore fruit...this time...

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Are the lost born with the inability to decide to believe a thing is or is not?

Are the lost unable to decide to believe that their place of employment will be there on Monday, after the weekend off?

Are the lost able to decide to believe that what that Gideon Bible they found there in that hotel room says about the Cross is true or false?

That is all faith is, as depicted both in Scripture, and in everyday life.

A deciding to believe a thing is so, regardless of whether or not, it actually is, and or regardless of what empirical evidence one may, or may not have...

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

THIS is what is meant by the simple expression "MAKE a DECISION FOR...Christ."

It refers to the same exact DECIDING TO believe that I am about to make about my sending this post, just before I send it - that it WILL get through.

Whether or not "the server is full" my above is my DECISION TO believe it WILL post...

Well, lookey there... I “DECIDED” to thank your post...

 

[Danoh]

Well, lookey there... I “DECIDED” to thank your post...

Well :chuckle:

And Romans 5:8

 

[Sonnet]

Not sure if you were initially shocked by the torment quote... but keep in mind... Demons are aligned directly against Love and God, but know that God is the one that has the juice...

Thus... the Torment has much meaning beyond our simple frame of discussion here.

If I’m wrong about your initial “shocking” post... so be it.

One thing... [MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] ‘s quote supports [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] ‘s ...

Demons in the presence of God... cannot lie to God. It’s a bad idea. But demons out of the physical presence of God tell many lies..

I was emphasising my continuing shock regarding Rom 9. The subject of demons would be another area of scepticism.

 

[Sonnet]

Are the lost born with the inability to decide to believe a thing is or is not?

Are the lost unable to decide to believe that their place of employment will be there on Monday, after the weekend off?

Are the lost able to decide to believe that what that Gideon Bible they found there in that hotel room says about the Cross is true or false?

That is all faith is, as depicted both in Scripture, and in everyday life.

A deciding to believe a thing is so, regardless of whether or not, it actually is, and or regardless of what empirical evidence one may, or may not have...

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

THIS is what is meant by the simple expression "MAKE a DECISION FOR...Christ."

It refers to the same exact DECIDING TO believe that I am about to make about my sending this post, just before I send it - that it WILL get through.

Whether or not "the server is full" my above is my DECISION TO believe it WILL post...

Do you recognise that the Church is riven? That Romans 9 and John 3:14-16 do not sit well together?

 

[Sonnet]

Esau is Edom, and that is what God is talking about. The nations that would come....two nations were in her womb.

Genesis 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.​

It's always according to what men or nations DO, and the potter verses make that clear when read in context. You'll also find that God only hardens an already hard heart (in the Pharaoh example).

I would say that John 3:14-16 is categorical in refuting any notion of anyone being excluded from salvation - whilst Romans 9 is less clear in its meaning. Certainly, Paul's conclusion does not support the Calvinist's interpretation. Paul is underlining the Jews' mistaken notion that works brought righteousness.

And if we don't assume that Paul's singling out of Pharaoh excludes any one of us from being so described (for surely Romans 3:10-18 has to be true of us with regard and in contrast to the perfection of Jesus / the law) then Paul is merely asserting that God has utilized all of man's wrongful deeds.

I just am still a little troubled by the language of Paul.

 

[George Affleck]

Second, the words cannot, by any stretch, be anything other than, first and foremost, a statement of fact. Plain sentence structure is learned in primary school and is plain on its own. The plain meaning is already clear and John does not record Jesus as having said; 'If you will dig deep inside yourselves and come up with a belief strong enough I will reward your belief by...etc.'. In fact, the Bible never even hints at us having a residual or latent faith that we can draw upon from within ourselves. It actually confirms the opposite.

The Bible does more than hint at our having a built in knowledge of God... which we can draw on when we hear the preaching of the word. We were created with that knowledge in us. Which is why man is without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I did not say we did not have a built in knowledge of God. Please don't put words in my mouth. I have enough trouble keeping track of them at my age as it is. Head knowledge and faith are two completely different things and possessing one does not ipso facto mean that one possesses the other. I said; "...the Bible never even hints at us having a residual or latent faith...". It is faith that saves, not head knowledge.

The verse you gave (one of my favourites actually) points specifically to those who, indeed, have that head knowledge and witness of creation staring them in the face and yet do not believe. Bare facts do not save but they can be arresting. They need to be born again by the Spirit but they resist even the preaching of the bare facts. They close their eyes and ears lest they become followers of Jesus - God forbid.

Third, you are not consistent with the strict line of reasoning you are taking with John 3:14-15KJV. In order to draw such a close comparison you must also explain how Jesus can compare Himself to a fiery serpent and explain why only some were healed while others died before the serpent appeared. Hebrews 11 is replete with examples of those who, prior to Jesus being lifted up, exhibited the same faith that in Eph 2:8KJV is called a gift. Your conclusion is what comes of reading too much into an analogy.

Jesus did compare Himself to the fiery serpent, with good reason. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh.
Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The entire point is clear. The venom of the serpent is sin. Those who believed Moses and looked upon the serpent would live. It's one of the clearest pictures of faith we have in the Bible.

Now you are the one reading too much into the analogy. The likeness of sinful flesh simply means appearing to us in a body like we have which we know of as sinful; yet He was without sin. Jesus did not compare Himself to the serpent who had a venomous sting.

He compared the lifting up, the looking to, and the belief in. It is the belief in that Jesus keys in on. In this respect, Jesus declares that an individual must be born again. Looking to is not enough.

Please provide theoretical words that you think John could have used to explain that Jesus was making a statement of fact more than what he did?

Still waiting for this...among other things.

 

[Sonnet]

He compared the lifting up, the looking to, and the belief in. It is the belief in that Jesus keys in on. In this respect, Jesus declares that an individual must be born again. Looking to is not enough.

No obstacle whatsoever prevented any dying Israelite from looking to the bronze serpent. That is clear from the story.

Jesus freely chose this analogy and not one that supports the Calvinist's model. The story of the Passover would be more in line with the election / reprobation paradigm with the Egyptian first born as the non-elect.

 

[intojoy]

Will add narrative shortly.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After Adam sinned a plan to send the God Man King, the Seed of the woman into the world was implemented.

That He would die for sin was not known until it was revealed by Isaiah centuries later.

The “Seed Son” was narrowed down from humanity to Noah, then Shem, and then to Abe narrowing the Seed Son to one nationality; Israel. From that nation the Seed narrows down to one family, the family of Judah and David.

Simultaneously along with the promise of the Seed Son was the separation of the nations and the calling and growth of Israel. This is where the understanding of the twofold ministry of Messiah must be reconciled. There are simply too many scriptures that forecast the literal earthly ministry of the Messiah as the king over Israel to ignore. The reformed group has to spiritualized Israel as a synonym with the church to fit their preconceived philosophical prejudice. But for the strict literalist students of the word we will take the promises of a Messianic king for Israel quite literally.

1. The nation of Israel is given the Torah of 613 (not just 10) commandments.
2. The nation quickly becomes idolatrous. Israel views the Canaanite gods as superior to Jehovah because the people of the land have chariots that kept Israel from the low country forcing them to farm the mountainous areas that are less fertile. Plus temple prostitution became a very strong attraction for the Jews.
3. God responds to Israel by the Judges and the kingdom program goes thru it’s mediatorial phase with Judges intermediating between God and the people. These judges have short success followed by apostasy resulting in invading philistine armies.
4. God gives Israel a king. This becomes the monarchical phase of the kingdom of God program. After David Israel and Judah have successive bad Kings with a couple of exceptions. This also resulted in widespread idolatry.
5. Towards the end of the monarchical phase God begins to send in the Hebrew prophets. These prophets prophesy of the coming captivity and a future restoration of the nation into the land of Israel with the Messiah, the God Man King as their ruler. The major portions of the prophetic word deal with these two things, the Kingdom age and captivity. There are only a small number of OT prophecies that deal with the sacrificial work of the cross.
6. The Messiah arrives. He continually goes about purposefully breaking the Mishnaic Law aka the “tradition of the elders.” On every challenge made by his enemies Yeshua is only once challenged on the basis of the 613 law code of Moses. Every other time it’s Jewish tradition and not Torah.
7. The Messiah came to offer the Kingdom to Israel “the kingdom is within you” meaning in your midst.
8. The Messiah is rejected in Mt 12 “the unpardonable sin.”
9. The Messiah dramatically and drastically changes His ministry after the events of Mt12. There are three new policies. (1) the disciples go from proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah to being forbidden to proclaim
Him, Yeshua institutes a policy of silence. (2) the parabolic method of teaching is now implemented in order to disguise the truth about the kingdom of God program from the nation while Yeshua privately reveals the meaning of the parables to His disciples. The kingdom program is now in mystery form.

This is a snap shot of the kingdom of God program that is multifaceted.

Your questions about the gospel need to be examined in the light of the Old Testament related passages. The reformists doctrine cannot answer your objections because they’ve abandoned the literal hermeneutic as did Augustine who was the first to claim the allegorical interpretation which has been the bane of Christianity ever since.


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[glorydaz]

I did not say we did not have a built in knowledge of God. Please don't put words in my mouth. I have enough trouble keeping track of them at my age as it is.

Ha....I know the feeling. But, I don't believe I was putting words in your mouth. I wasn't talking about "head knowledge" when I offered that quote.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.​

There have been men of faith from the beginning. Not everyone's foolish heart was darkened.

Head knowledge and faith are two completely different things and possessing one does not ipso facto mean that one possesses the other. I said; "...the Bible never even hints at us having a residual or latent faith...". It is faith that saves, not head knowledge.


The verse you gave (one of my favourites actually) points specifically to those who, indeed, have that head knowledge and witness of creation staring them in the face and yet do not believe. Bare facts do not save but they can be arresting. They need to be born again by the Spirit but they resist even the preaching of the bare facts. They close their eyes and ears lest they become followers of Jesus - God forbid.

I was speaking of that "knowing" that was CREATED IN us. We were created to "know" God..."That which may be known of God is manifest in" us.

In no way can this be talking about head knowledge. The "invisible things" ...even his eternal power and Godhead". "Clearly seen and understood..."

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

I say that Romans 1 and 2 more than hints at our having faith created right in us. We were created to believe in God.....

They are without excuse because when they KNEW GOD, they turned away and their foolish heart was darkened. This is further pointed out in Romans 2 where the conscience of man shows man is without excuse. Those Gentiles who "do by nature" the things contained in the law. We don't need to be born again to know this. We knew from the beginning, but turned away.

 

[George Affleck]

Very curious indeed!

You made the statement:

Saint John could have used such words as you use to make that apparent but he didn't. He would be guilty of playing fast and loose otherwise.

To which I replied:

Please provide theoretical words that you think John could have used to explain that Jesus was making a statement of fact more than what he did?

To which you replied:

Jesus would have avoided this particular OT story.

Perhaps I missed something...?

Are you suggesting that if the only point was to make a clear, unencumbered statement, then Jesus would have avoided the issue altogether?

 

[George Affleck]

Ha....I know the feeling. But, I don't believe I was putting words in your mouth. I wasn't talking about "head knowledge" when I offered that quote.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.​

There have been men of faith from the beginning. Not everyone's foolish heart was darkened.



I was speaking of that "knowing" that was CREATED IN us. We were created to "know" God..."That which may be known of God is manifest in" us.

In no way can this be talking about head knowledge. The "invisible things" ...even his eternal power and Godhead". "Clearly seen and understood..."

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

I say that Romans 1 and 2 more than hints at our having faith created right in us. We were created to believe in God.....

They are without excuse because when they KNEW GOD, they turned away and their foolish heart was darkened. This is further pointed out in Romans 2 where the conscience of man shows man is without excuse. Those Gentiles who "do by nature" the things contained in the law. We don't need to be born again to know this. We knew from the beginning, but turned away.

Ok then...we have both had our say and we disagree.
Could be worse.

Blessings.

:carryon:

 

[George Affleck]

No obstacle whatsoever prevented any dying Israelite from looking to the bronze serpent.

Wouldn't that make a wonderful Monty Python sketch.

"What? Blind? Sorry...no can do.
Must have 20/20 you know! Rules are rules."

"Tell you what, you go up near the serpent and make funny faces and coo.
Surely the baby will look in that general direction!
All he has to do is look for a fraction of a second."

"Too old? Yes...I mean, No!"

 

[glorydaz]

Now you are the one reading too much into the analogy. The likeness of sinful flesh simply means appearing to us in a body like we have which we know of as sinful; yet He was without sin.

This verse says much more than that.

"In the likeness of sinful flesh, "AND FOR SIN".

LIFTED UP (on the cross) as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole.
The bronze serpent representing the poison of SIN.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

"For what the law could not do"...Romans 8:3 No amount of self effort by the children in the wilderness would remove the poison of sin. They could make every effort....try cutting out the poison, sucking out the poison, washing off the poison, running around in circles. No effort on their part would do it. They merely had to look and they would live.

Jesus did not compare Himself to the serpent who had a venomous sting.

Really? He compared Himself to the manna from heaven and the rock that gave forth water. 1 Corinthians 10:4

Numbers 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.​

He compared the lifting up, the looking to, and the belief in. It is the belief in that Jesus keys in on. In this respect, Jesus declares that an individual must be born again. Looking to is not enough.

Jesus did say "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness". To which He added that "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". He did not say whosoever is born again will not perish.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

You're supposed to look here....not dismiss it. It was an act of faith. Those who believed Moses looked and lived.

Numbers 21:6 And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.​

 

[glorydaz]

Ok then...we have both had our say and we disagree.
Could be worse.

Blessings.

:carryon:

Then I'll just steal your words, "Very curious indeed!"

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I was emphasising my continuing shock regarding Rom 9. The subject of demons would be another area of scepticism.

I cant believe I’m saying this... but [MENTION=15326]intojoy[/MENTION] has your answer about the precursor to Romans 9 in his exposition. He nailed it.

Romans 9 - 11 is bound to Mt. 23. Any other lens... brings confusion and the division you note.

I even have Romans 11 in my signature... as it is directly bound to your observations.

As for belief in the supernatural... demons, Angels, God... ask God to reveal what you need for faith... He is never slack in provision.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

After Adam sinned a plan to send the God Man King, the Seed of the woman into the world was implemented.

That He would die for sin was not known until it was revealed by Isaiah centuries later.

The “Seed Son” was narrowed down from humanity to Noah, then Shem, and then to Abe narrowing the Seed Son to one nationality; Israel. From that nation the Seed narrows down to one family, the family of Judah and David.

Simultaneously along with the promise of the Seed Son was the separation of the nations and the calling and growth of Israel. This is where the understanding of the twofold ministry of Messiah must be reconciled. There are simply too many scriptures that forecast the literal earthly ministry of the Messiah as the king over Israel to ignore. The reformed group has to spiritualized Israel as a synonym with the church to fit their preconceived philosophical prejudice. But for the strict literalist students of the word we will take the promises of a Messianic king for Israel quite literally.

1. The nation of Israel is given the Torah of 613 (not just 10) commandments.
2. The nation quickly becomes idolatrous. Israel views the Canaanite gods as superior to Jehovah because the people of the land have chariots that kept Israel from the low country forcing them to farm the mountainous areas that are less fertile. Plus temple prostitution became a very strong attraction for the Jews.
3. God responds to Israel by the Judges and the kingdom program goes thru it’s mediatorial phase with Judges intermediating between God and the people. These judges have short success followed by apostasy resulting in invading philistine armies.
4. God gives Israel a king. This becomes the monarchical phase of the kingdom of God program. After David Israel and Judah have successive bad Kings with a couple of exceptions. This also resulted in widespread idolatry.
5. Towards the end of the monarchical phase God begins to send in the Hebrew prophets. These prophets prophesy of the coming captivity and a future restoration of the nation into the land of Israel with the Messiah, the God Man King as their ruler. The major portions of the prophetic word deal with these two things, the Kingdom age and captivity. There are only a small number of OT prophecies that deal with the sacrificial work of the cross.
6. The Messiah arrives. He continually goes about purposefully breaking the Mishnaic Law aka the “tradition of the elders.” On every challenge made by his enemies Yeshua is only once challenged on the basis of the 613 law code of Moses. Every other time it’s Jewish tradition and not Torah.
7. The Messiah came to offer the Kingdom to Israel “the kingdom is within you” meaning in your midst.
8. The Messiah is rejected in Mt 12 “the unpardonable sin.”
9. The Messiah dramatically and drastically changes His ministry after the events of Mt12. There are three new policies. (1) the disciples go from proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah to being forbidden to proclaim
Him, Yeshua institutes a policy of silence. (2) the parabolic method of teaching is now implemented in order to disguise the truth about the kingdom of God program from the nation while Yeshua privately reveals the meaning of the parables to His disciples. The kingdom program is now in mystery form.

This is a snap shot of the kingdom of God program that is multifaceted.

Your questions about the gospel need to be examined in the light of the Old Testament related passages. The reformists doctrine cannot answer your objections because they’ve abandoned the literal hermeneutic as did Augustine who was the first to claim the allegorical interpretation which has been the bane of Christianity ever since.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Damn!!!! IJ.... you nailed it... Real talk... :thumb:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Wouldn't that make a wonderful Monty Python sketch.

"What? Blind? Sorry...no can do.
Must have 20/20 you know! Rules are rules."

"Tell you what, you go up near the serpent and make funny faces and coo.
Surely the baby will look in that general direction!
All he has to do is look for a fraction of a second."

"Too old? Yes...I mean, No!"

You are extra awesome for this post... Monty Python ... No wonder you’re so fun, sincere and full of understanding in the heat of debate.

My hats off to you George... :e4e:

And yes.... that is hilarious and it should have been done!