What is the Gospel?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jesus tells Nicodemus about rebirth. That's it.

I'm looking for a verses or verses that might lead me to re-evaluate the analogy of vv.14&15. Nobody offered the bronze snake could not do as Moses suggested.

In both instances I have provided an analysis in my answer. Your only response, is basically "no, I disagree".

I do not have time to engage when another is unwilling (or unable) to meet me at the same level.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I just wonder AMR - isn't this a tacit admission that a preacher primarily using vv.14-16 for his Gospel would be misunderstood by his audience? I can't imagine anyone thinking that genuine salvation wasn't being offered.

I have explained why the view of the "well-meant" offer cannot stand:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111379&viewfull=1#post5111379

That you "cannot imagine" this, is not an adequate response. I know you have opinions about this or that, but the expectation of the veracity of your opinions rests in some actual content that would test that veracity. You like to cherry-pick a verse or two here and there, but tend to ignore the full counsel of Scripture, when, by necessary and logical consequence, teaches something different that you assume these cherry-picked verses teach. That is how imagined contradictions appear, especially when wooden literalism is at work.

"All the people came to Him" - really, each and every person in the city?
"He took Him up and showed Him all the Kingdoms of the world" - really, did they go into orbit around the earth?
"All who came before me are thieves and robbers" - really, the prophets are thieves and robbers?
"he is baptizing, and all are going to him" - really, each and every person were showing up?
"there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed" - really, the entire earth was taxed?
"behold, the world is gone after him" - really, the entire population of the earth was present at the Triumphal entry?
"healing every sickness and disease among the people" - really, every individuals disease was healed?
"All men are liars" - really, then David was lying when he said this?

You see the nonsense that abounds when the full counsel of Scripture is not taken into account when we run across one of our favorite "go to" verses thinking we have settled the matter once and for all.

The same goes for if God wills all men to be saved, then all men will be saved, for “He (God) doeth according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth” (Daniel 4:35). God does not fail. God cannot be disappointed in His own will, for He works all things after the counsel of his own will (Eph. 1:11).

Or, in Heb 2:9, Jesus is said to “taste death for every man” wherein it is in the very next verse restricted to “sons brought to glory,” followed in Heb 2:11, to “sanctified are all of one”. Over in 1 Timothy 2:6, “who gave Himself a ransom for all” is rendered in the parallel text in Titus 2:14, “who gave Himself for us.” Now, who exactly are the persons called “us” in this text? Are they not particularized as “redeemed from all iniquity, purified and made a peculiar people?” Clearly, for “all” of this description are the one's for whom Christ gave Himself a ransom, and for no one else.

And so on, and so on. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Completely out of context.

That verse is SPECIFICALLY about the restoration of Israel.

God is not in the business of restoring geographic locales on earth. He is in the business of redeeming persons that may or may not reside in these geographic regions. I am an American whether I reside in Arizona or Jerusalem. The Israel of God is not simply some place in the Middle East. If you want to claim "context" then claim the full counsel of Scripture. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Right Divider]

God is not in the business of restoring geographic locales on earth. He is in the business of redeeming persons that may or may not reside in these geographic regions. I am an American whether I reside in Arizona or Jerusalem. The Israel of God is not simply some place in the Middle East. If you want to claim "context" then claim the full counsel of Scripture. :AMR:

AMR

I completely understand your confusion. You are like so many that prefer your religion over the Bible.

The term "Israel of God" in the Bible refers to faithful believers of the nation of Israel.

P.S. I don't need links to writings by people who also prefer their religion over the Bible.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If someone broke away, then whom they broke away from, is the Church.

Do not buy into the Romanists “the RCC has been the one true church for two thousand years” rhetoric.

The rise of what would become the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) began around the fifth century as Rome was collapsing under Barbarian invasions (Alaric the Visigoth, the Huns under Atilla). So we have a group that tyrannized the bodies of men (Rome) soon to be replaced by a group that would tyrannize the souls of men.

The actual establishment of the political and ecclesiastical Roman Catholicism owes its genesis to three popes: Hildebrand, Innocent III, and Boniface VIII. With Innocent III the papacy was cemented as a controller of church and state. His Fourth Lateran Council defined RCC's seven sacraments, required confession, and made the penitential treadmill necessary as the only way to salvation. Finally Boniface's Unam Sanctum made submission to the Pope necessary for salvation.

By the thirteenth century the true church was in the wilderness existing in part among some within the RCC and the Waldenses. Justification by faith alone, the divine way of forgiveness and salvation had yet to be officially denounced and condemned (that would come later with Trent). Lastly, the church had yet to declare that its interpretation of inspired Holy Writ was infallible and solely legitimate. So the true church was there, but, as noted, scattered in the wilderness wherein the elect did hear our Lord's voice above that of the false shepherds, much like the blind man heard Jesus as the Christ in John 9.

The Reformation (500th anniversary this month!) was soon to come on the heels of men like Wyclif, Hus, Lyra, Valla, Erasmus, and Ockham. Indeed, God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Those last four Renaissance minds of natural men were used by God to show the likes of Luther the more true path. At the time of the Reformation it was clear that the RCC had long since departed from the true church and it was necessary that they be called to return from their apostasy by the Reformers. That call to return continues even to this day.

The RCC today is four or five generations removed from its beginnings. The ancient form held to Nicene orthodoxy and was in fellowship with other churches. The medieval version insisted on Roman supremacy, embraced transubstantiation, and thusly separated itself from other Christian churches. At that time justification and the place of tradition were still open to discussion. At Trent, the Tridentine form (1545–1563) of the church moved it beyond its medieval form by condemning views that had remained open to discussion and adding many more. Next came Vatican I (1868–1870) and Vatican II (1962–1965). These post-Tridentine versions of Rome theoretically are to be upholding the decisions of Trent, but when one examines the practices of Rome, they have moved outside the bounds and against Trent. For example, rather than supplementing Scripture with tradition, post-Tridentine Rome uses tradition to usurp Scripture.

In other words, Rome's claims are their own mythologies, not the reality of history. Sadly, many Protestants and Romanists swallow Rome's public relations machine outputs without careful scrutiny. Don't take the bait.

BTW, Nihilo. Why hide behind the "Christian" label, when just declaring yourself a Catholic? The option exists in the profile settings. Are you not proud enough of the moniker to claim it? Or do you just want to be able to smuggle in Rome's views on occasion? Or are you not an actual Catholic but just really really like their views...but no so much as to actually join them? :idunno:

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

P.S. I don't need links to writings by people who also prefer the religion over the Bible.

Then why bother posting your writings. Should anyone need to read your "writings"?

You are a member of the group "people". As soon as you claim "I do..." "I do not.." "I believe..." etc., you are in effect making your own statements, confessions, writings. One wonders why you then ignore what other "people" have written.

Your chronological snobbery is evident and its blatant double-mindedness exposed (James 1:18). My kingdom for the man who does not think himself so full of piety and self-righteousness as to ignore other persons indwelt by the same Holy Spirit coming before them they themselves claim to be by so indwelt.

You are like the child with his fingers in his ears while mumbling "blah blah blah blah" hoping to not actually hear something that will strike at the core of your own nonsense.

"Right-dividers." Sigh.

AMR

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

God is not in the business of restoring geographic locales on earth. He is in the business of redeeming persons that may or may not reside in these geographic regions. I am an American whether I reside in Arizona or Jerusalem. The Israel of God is not simply some place in the Middle East. If you want to claim "context" then claim the full counsel of Scripture. :AMR:

AMR

First it was “let’s all get along” and be cool that “All doesn’t mean all” to some (That would be me... saying that)... then, it was a complete debacle of trying to say that some mysterious force outside of scriptural implication kept some from looking onto the Bronze serpent... Other than stupidity and poor choice... (That wasn’t me) ....... But, now this?

Kitty with a machine gun is mad...

[MENTION=12870]steko[/MENTION]
[MENTION=7053]SaulToPaul[/MENTION]
[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION]
[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]
[MENTION=1851]john w[/MENTION].
[MENTION=15685]musterion[/MENTION]
[MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION]
[MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION]
@... Oh shoot... It’s on...

Now you get to see that discord, [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]...

Paging all dispensational individuals...

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

First it was “let’s all get along” and be cool

Well, Mssr. RD inserted himself and drew first blood here, so I am often not inclined to let it go unanswered.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...hose-who-wil&p=2906680&viewfull=1#post2906680


Maybe some kind bird of a feather will take RD aside and explain to him where all the land mines are hidden so he can avoid stumbling over them in the future.

AMR

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Well, Mssr. RD drew first blood here, so I am not inclined to let it go unanswered.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...hose-who-wil&p=2906680&viewfull=1#post2906680

AMR

Well, whoever drew first blood is irrelevant now... Dems answers and words against the Word of the King of Israel... and whatever comes next is fair...

That’s the way it works... Although I still think you’re wonderful AMR... You're bringing the Cannons of Dort and Supersessional hogwash to a Torah debate.

Answers to your answers are now due... since the founder of ZION is now accused of abandoning His promises to ZION...

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

If God’s UNCONDITIONAL Promises to Israel... are suddenly “Conditional”... we are all up Choclate Creek without a lollipop paddle!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Well, whoever drew first blood is irrelevant now... Dems answers and words against the Word of the King of Israel... and whatever comes next is fair...

Heh. You probaly missed this while I was editing the post:

Maybe some kind bird of a feather will take RD aside and explain to him where all the land mines are hidden so he can avoid stumbling over them in the future.

AMR

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Heh. You probaly missed this while I was editing the post:

The humor in your observation is promising as I think a storm is brewing...

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Let’s start with Romans 9... now that the “Cat” is out of the bag...

Does Romans 9 repeatedly refer to Israel of Kin and Geography?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

To me, the Israel of God is very simple.

The LORD Jesus came unto his own, those that rejected him were fallen. Those that followed him became the Israel of God.

 

[Samie]

The same goes for if God wills all men to be saved, then all men will be saved, for “He (God) doeth according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth” (Daniel 4:35). God does not fail. God cannot be disappointed in His own will, for He works all things after the counsel of his own will (Eph. 1:11).

The saving of all men was done through Christ - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Being slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and revealed on the cross (2 Tim 1:8-10), His death covers all - Adam and his progeny, both before and after the cross. When Adam sinned, God Who IS the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10) and "all men" NECESSARILY includes Adam, saved him through Christ. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ. Being born in Christ all are born saved. Therefore, God's will that all men be saved, found fulfillment in Adam's progeny being born in Christ.

Yes, we are born in Christ, but like sheep we all went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are commanded to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5). The command to repent is the same command God made in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command God NOW wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The humor in your observation is promising as I think a storm is brewing...

Tempests. Tea pots. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Tempests. Tea pots. :AMR:

AMR

Oh, just admit it... you were bored with all the unity and wanted to crank up the debate...

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The saving of all men was done through Christ - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Being slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and revealed on the cross (2 Tim 1:8-10), His death covers all - Adam and his progeny, both before and after the cross. When Adam sinned, God Who IS the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10) and "all men" NECESSARILY includes Adam, saved him through Christ. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ. Being born in Christ all are born saved. Therefore, God's will that all men be saved, found fulfillment in Adam's progeny being born in Christ.

Yes, we are born in Christ, but like sheep we all went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are commanded to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5). The command to repent is the same command God made in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command God NOW wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

You need to come to a better understanding of the First and Last Adam:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111369&viewfull=1#post5111369

AMR

 

[George Affleck]

Christianity is based on Christ; some of the things He did and said were controversial. Even His disciples didn't always agree; they saw things differently and had it straight from His own mouth. With all the writing and rewriting and translating, it doesn't get any clearer.

Does this mean that you think God is not capable of keeping His Word pure throughout all generations?

The important thing is not that we understand the Bible, but that we seek God. If you seek Him you will find Him and no man will ever change your mind.

The only place we can know Jesus is through the Scriptures. Without the Bible He is a footnote on the pages of history. If the most important thing that can happen to us in this life is to know Jesus, then understanding the Bible is absolutely vital.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You need to come to a better understanding of the First and Last Adam:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111369&viewfull=1#post5111369

AMR

Or maybe Romans 7, 1st Cor. 15 and Hebrews 2:14 go together like peanut butter and jelly and that Reformed headship needs to delve deeper than a few immediate proof verses...