What is the Gospel?

[Sonnet]

Wouldn't that make a wonderful Monty Python sketch.

"What? Blind? Sorry...no can do.
Must have 20/20 you know! Rules are rules."

"Tell you what, you go up near the serpent and make funny faces and coo.
Surely the baby will look in that general direction!
All he has to do is look for a fraction of a second."

"Too old? Yes...I mean, No!"

It would, yes - but are you going to address the serious point?

 

[Sonnet]

Very curious indeed!

You made the statement:



To which I replied:



To which you replied:



Perhaps I missed something...?

Are you suggesting that if the only point was to make a clear, unencumbered statement, then Jesus would have avoided the issue altogether?

To avoid misleading anyone who might think a genuine ability to believe was in the offing, Jesus (the Calvinist) would have chosen an alternative model.

 

[George Affleck]

It would, yes - but are you going to address the serious point?

I did. You missed it. Sarcasm.

There are many reasons why some of the Israelites may not or could not look at Moses' serpent.
You said there were no reasons.

 

[Sonnet]

I did. You missed it. Sarcasm.

There are many reasons why some of the Israelites may not or could not look at Moses' serpent.
You said there were no reasons.

I don't think this is going to be in any way fruitful to the discussion but if you would like be explicit then it's your call.

 

[Sonnet]

8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

 

[Sonnet]

After Adam sinned a plan to send the God Man King, the Seed of the woman into the world was implemented.

That He would die for sin was not known until it was revealed by Isaiah centuries later.

The “Seed Son” was narrowed down from humanity to Noah, then Shem, and then to Abe narrowing the Seed Son to one nationality; Israel. From that nation the Seed narrows down to one family, the family of Judah and David.

Simultaneously along with the promise of the Seed Son was the separation of the nations and the calling and growth of Israel. This is where the understanding of the twofold ministry of Messiah must be reconciled. There are simply too many scriptures that forecast the literal earthly ministry of the Messiah as the king over Israel to ignore. The reformed group has to spiritualized Israel as a synonym with the church to fit their preconceived philosophical prejudice. But for the strict literalist students of the word we will take the promises of a Messianic king for Israel quite literally.

1. The nation of Israel is given the Torah of 613 (not just 10) commandments.
2. The nation quickly becomes idolatrous. Israel views the Canaanite gods as superior to Jehovah because the people of the land have chariots that kept Israel from the low country forcing them to farm the mountainous areas that are less fertile. Plus temple prostitution became a very strong attraction for the Jews.
3. God responds to Israel by the Judges and the kingdom program goes thru it’s mediatorial phase with Judges intermediating between God and the people. These judges have short success followed by apostasy resulting in invading philistine armies.
4. God gives Israel a king. This becomes the monarchical phase of the kingdom of God program. After David Israel and Judah have successive bad Kings with a couple of exceptions. This also resulted in widespread idolatry.
5. Towards the end of the monarchical phase God begins to send in the Hebrew prophets. These prophets prophesy of the coming captivity and a future restoration of the nation into the land of Israel with the Messiah, the God Man King as their ruler. The major portions of the prophetic word deal with these two things, the Kingdom age and captivity. There are only a small number of OT prophecies that deal with the sacrificial work of the cross.
6. The Messiah arrives. He continually goes about purposefully breaking the Mishnaic Law aka the “tradition of the elders.” On every challenge made by his enemies Yeshua is only once challenged on the basis of the 613 law code of Moses. Every other time it’s Jewish tradition and not Torah.
7. The Messiah came to offer the Kingdom to Israel “the kingdom is within you” meaning in your midst.
8. The Messiah is rejected in Mt 12 “the unpardonable sin.”
9. The Messiah dramatically and drastically changes His ministry after the events of Mt12. There are three new policies. (1) the disciples go from proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah to being forbidden to proclaim
Him, Yeshua institutes a policy of silence. (2) the parabolic method of teaching is now implemented in order to disguise the truth about the kingdom of God program from the nation while Yeshua privately reveals the meaning of the parables to His disciples. The kingdom program is now in mystery form.

This is a snap shot of the kingdom of God program that is multifaceted.

Your questions about the gospel need to be examined in the light of the Old Testament related passages. The reformists doctrine cannot answer your objections because they’ve abandoned the literal hermeneutic as did Augustine who was the first to claim the allegorical interpretation which has been the bane of Christianity ever since.


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Thanks. Very interesting. Will respond anon.

 

[Sonnet]

After Adam sinned a plan to send the God Man King, the Seed of the woman into the world was implemented.

That He would die for sin was not known until it was revealed by Isaiah centuries later.

The “Seed Son” was narrowed down from humanity to Noah, then Shem, and then to Abe narrowing the Seed Son to one nationality; Israel. From that nation the Seed narrows down to one family, the family of Judah and David.

Simultaneously along with the promise of the Seed Son was the separation of the nations and the calling and growth of Israel. This is where the understanding of the twofold ministry of Messiah must be reconciled. There are simply too many scriptures that forecast the literal earthly ministry of the Messiah as the king over Israel to ignore. The reformed group has to spiritualized Israel as a synonym with the church to fit their preconceived philosophical prejudice. But for the strict literalist students of the word we will take the promises of a Messianic king for Israel quite literally.

1. The nation of Israel is given the Torah of 613 (not just 10) commandments.
2. The nation quickly becomes idolatrous. Israel views the Canaanite gods as superior to Jehovah because the people of the land have chariots that kept Israel from the low country forcing them to farm the mountainous areas that are less fertile. Plus temple prostitution became a very strong attraction for the Jews.
3. God responds to Israel by the Judges and the kingdom program goes thru it’s mediatorial phase with Judges intermediating between God and the people. These judges have short success followed by apostasy resulting in invading philistine armies.
4. God gives Israel a king. This becomes the monarchical phase of the kingdom of God program. After David Israel and Judah have successive bad Kings with a couple of exceptions. This also resulted in widespread idolatry.
5. Towards the end of the monarchical phase God begins to send in the Hebrew prophets. These prophets prophesy of the coming captivity and a future restoration of the nation into the land of Israel with the Messiah, the God Man King as their ruler. The major portions of the prophetic word deal with these two things, the Kingdom age and captivity. There are only a small number of OT prophecies that deal with the sacrificial work of the cross.
6. The Messiah arrives. He continually goes about purposefully breaking the Mishnaic Law aka the “tradition of the elders.” On every challenge made by his enemies Yeshua is only once challenged on the basis of the 613 law code of Moses. Every other time it’s Jewish tradition and not Torah.
7. The Messiah came to offer the Kingdom to Israel “the kingdom is within you” meaning in your midst.
8. The Messiah is rejected in Mt 12 “the unpardonable sin.”
9. The Messiah dramatically and drastically changes His ministry after the events of Mt12. There are three new policies. (1) the disciples go from proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah to being forbidden to proclaim
Him, Yeshua institutes a policy of silence. (2) the parabolic method of teaching is now implemented in order to disguise the truth about the kingdom of God program from the nation while Yeshua privately reveals the meaning of the parables to His disciples. The kingdom program is now in mystery form.

This is a snap shot of the kingdom of God program that is multifaceted.

Your questions about the gospel need to be examined in the light of the Old Testament related passages. The reformists doctrine cannot answer your objections because they’ve abandoned the literal hermeneutic as did Augustine who was the first to claim the allegorical interpretation which has been the bane of Christianity ever since.


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Luke 19
41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

 

[blackbirdking]

This remains shocking:

13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

If you choose to read this through Calvinistic glasses help yourself; nothing else matters. You become a pawn on the chess board of life. If you believe these verses describe the character of God, why would you want to know Him? If Calvinism is right, it's better to believe a lie; kinda like Puddleglum in C. S. Lewis's Silver Chair, when he tells the witch that the Over World, even if imaginary, beats her Real World all hollow.
On the other hand, if you seek the truth of God's character and study these verses to know Him, He is obligated by His character to lead you into truth.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
All Calvinists believe that they are elect and were chosen not to be damned by God, who ordained the damnation of others. They profess to love God because they were ordained to love Him; therefore, they love Him without the option of not loving Him because they only will love Him, because they were chosen to love Him when they had no ability to choose for themselves. All Calvinists also believe that the Chosen men will love God because they no longer have the ability to choose to not love Him. All Calvinists believe that anyone who does not love God was not Chosen to love Him, and will therefore be damned because they don't have the ability to choose to love Him.

I ask myself, "Is it love then?" I Answer, "No."

 

[Sonnet]

If you choose to read this through Calvinistic glasses help yourself; nothing else matters. You become a pawn on the chess board of life. If you believe these verses describe the character of God, why would you want to know Him?

If Calvinism is right, it's better to believe a lie; Kinda like Puddleglum in C. S. Lewis's Silver Chair, when he tells the witch that the Over World, even if imaginary, beats her Real World all hollow.
On the other hand, if you seek the truth of God's character and study these verses to know Him, He is obligated by His character to lead you into truth.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
All Calvinists believe that they are elect and were chosen not to be damned by God, who ordained
the damnation of others. They profess to love God because they were ordained to love Him; therefore,
they love Him without the option of not loving Him because they only will love Him, because they
were chosen to love Him when they had no ability to choose for themselves. All Calvinists also
believe that the Chosen men will love God because they no longer have the ability to choose to not
love Him. All Calvinists believe that anyone who does not love God was not Chosen to love Him, and will therefore be damned because they don't have the ability to choose to love Him.

I ask myself, "Is it love then?" I Answer, "No."

Assuming this is an accurate understanding then one wonders why Calvinism is tolerated.

 

[blackbirdking]

Assuming this is an accurate understanding then one wonders why Calvinism is tolerated.

It is in name only; most people who go to churches of Calvinistic background only hold to certain of Calvin's teachings and have no idea what TULIP is. They like the P part mostly; that's what they all know and agree on. We all want to "not loose our salvation", right?

 

[Sonnet]

It is in name only; most people who go to churches of Calvinistic background only hold to certain of Calvin's teachings and have no idea what TULIP is. They like the P part mostly; that's what they all know and agree on. We all want to "not loose our salvation", right?

I take your point. But what about the leaders - those that actively push the theology? As I have said on this thread - allowing both sides breath means the Gospel ends up undefined.

 

[Sonnet]

It is in name only; most people who go to churches of Calvinistic background only hold to certain of Calvin's teachings and have no idea what TULIP is. They like the P part mostly; that's what they all know and agree on. We all want to "not loose our salvation", right?

For example:

The christianforums.com (CF) page - How do I become a Christian? has this:
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." --Romans 5:8 (NIV)
So it would seem that CF is telling unbelievers that Christ died for them. That being the case, why would CF allow those that say that Christ did not die for all people (and therefore contradicting CF's view of the Gospel) to post in the 'Christians only' forums?

The page also says this:

The central theme of the Bible is God's love for you and for all people. This love was revealed when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came into the world as a human being, lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead. Because Christ died, your sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death you can have eternal life. You can know for sure what will become of you after you die.

 

[blackbirdking]

I take your point. But what about the leaders - those that actively push the theology? As I have said on this thread - allowing both sides breath means the Gospel ends up undefined.

The Gospel is not defined by this thread or any other. The Gospel was and is defined by Christ. The Gospel is not the most important thing; knowing God is. You don't even need a Gospel if God doesn't exist.

 

[blackbirdking]

For example:

The christianforums.com (CF) page - How do I become a Christian? has this:
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." --Romans 5:8 (NIV)
So it would seem that CF is telling unbelievers that Christ died for them. That being the case, why would CF allow those that say that Christ did not die for all people (and therefore contradicting CF's view of the Gospel) to post in the 'Christians only' forums?

The page also says this:

The central theme of the Bible is God's love for you and for all people. This love was revealed when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came into the world as a human being, lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead. Because Christ died, your sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death you can have eternal life. You can know for sure what will become of you after you die.

Tolerance: Christians normally do not judge another's heart. Christians are the most tolerant people on the earth.

Christianity is based on Christ; some of the things He did and said were controversial. Even His disciples didn't always agree; they saw things differently and had it straight from His own mouth. With all the writing and rewriting and translating, it doesn't get any clearer.

The important thing is not that we understand the Bible, but that we seek God. If you seek Him you will find Him and no man will ever change your mind.

IMO, religion is a scourge to mankind, and most of it is built around man's interpretation of the Bible. Religious people crucified Jesus; many, if not all, wars are fought over religion.

Seek God and He will lead you into truth. If He doesn't, He's a liar and His character is flawed, right is wrong and wrong is right, the world is going to hell(if one exists) and nothing matters anyways; however, I am most certain He will.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Tolerance: Christians normally do not judge another's heart. Christians are the most tolerant people on the earth.

Christianity is based on Christ; some of the things He did and said were controversial. Even His disciples didn't always agree; they saw things differently and had it straight from His own mouth. With all the writing and rewriting and translating, it doesn't get any clearer.

The important thing is not that we understand the Bible, but that we seek God. If you seek Him you will find Him and no man will ever change your mind.

IMO, religion is a scourge to mankind, and most of it is built around man's interpretation of the Bible. Religious people crucified Jesus; many, if not all, wars are fought over religion.

Seek God and He will lead you into truth. If He doesn't, He's a liar and His character is flawed, right is wrong and wrong is right, the world is going to hell(if one exists) and nothing matters anyways; however, I am most certain He will.

[MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] ... I’m throwing deuces up... I’ll be around... but this is articulated so well... I just don’t know what else to say...

Why?

Because [MENTION=11892]blackbirdking[/MENTION] just articulated the heart of the matter on a Mic Drop level.

As in... I’m not saying that this thread should end... but I am saying that post [MENTION=11892]blackbirdking[/MENTION] ‘s posts ... it could easily be /Thread ... or [/thread]

Yup.... for this thread... I’m nic naming BBK “John Cena”

As in....

https://youtu.be/Gr2kAqZep5E

When [MENTION=11892]blackbirdking[/MENTION] says Tolerance...I’m fairly certain they are insinuating “beyond” mere “tolerance” and all the way to “Love”.

They can correct me... but, that’s how I read them...

 

[Right Divider]

The important thing is not that we understand the Bible, but that we seek God. If you seek Him you will find Him and no man will ever change your mind.

This statement makes no sense.

The Bible is the Word of God. How do you "seek God" without understanding His Word?

The Bible is God's explanation of everything from beginning to end. If you don't understand God's Word, you don't understand God.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This statement makes no sense.

The Bible is the Word of God. How do you "seek God" without understanding His Word?

The Bible is God's explanation of everything from beginning to end. If you don't understand God's Word, you don't understand God.

BBK John Cena is quoting Christ... with paraphrase...

John 5:39-40

39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.​

Another place this is echoed is here...

1 Cor. 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing

+

1 John 4:8 ...God, because God is love.​

They’re not invalidating scripture, but validating faith in Jesus... Alone.

Sure scripture points to Jesus... aka GOD With Us... but it’s Jesus... not scripture and scriptural knowledge that saves us.

IMNSHO... (in my not so humble opinion) this is what they were saying...

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Also... they are referring to Luke 11:9 and the like verses...

Like 11:9 I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you

 

[Right Divider]

BBK John Cena is quoting Christ... with paraphrase...

John 5:39-40

39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.​

Another place this is echoed is here...

1 Cor. 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing

+

1 John 4:8 ...God, because God is love.​

They’re not invalidating scripture, but validating faith in Jesus... Alone.

Sure scripture points to Jesus... aka GOD With Us... but it’s Jesus... not scripture and scriptural knowledge that saves us.

IMNSHO... (in my not so humble opinion) this is what they were saying...

Yes, the LORD Jesus Christ is the Word... but the Bible is the "written" Word of God.

When the LORD Jesus Christ was talking to them, they were being spoken to by God.

We, today, to not have the LORD standing before us in the flesh and speaking to us.

The only way that we can "know God" or "seek God" is through the Bible, His written Word.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes, the LORD Jesus Christ is the Word... but the Bible is the "written" Word of God.

When the LORD Jesus Christ was talking to them, they were being spoken to by God.

We, today, do not have the LORD standing before us in the flesh and speaking to us.

The only way that we can "know God" or "seek God" is through the Bible, His written Word.

I can totally dig this... and agree “almost” 100%

Verses like these carry much meaning... and though we are drawn to scripture by the 1 John 2:27 (Holy Spirit of Jesus... as in The Man/God’s very personal Essence of Being) of the matter... I’m confident that if scripture disappeared... Christ would carry on and faith would find a way.

Luke 19:40 He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out

Why?

Because...

All my best to you Right Divider... I’m throwing deuces and getting “Swaze”.