What is the Gospel?

[intojoy]

:e4e:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

The cross is not the only saving instrumentality


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[1Mind1Spirit]

The cross is not the only saving instrumentality


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Show ain't....

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The cross is not the only saving instrumentality


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1 Cor. 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preachb to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The Cross didn’t make “the Man”... The “Son of Man” made the cross infinitly Effectual... and then... “He Rose Above It”.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Interesting post.

There is indeed, a contrast there, between the former, and the latter parts of that chapter.

Meaning, either that one needs to be saved in order to see those things, or one does not need to be saved in order to understand those things, and the Apostle Paul is actually talking about something else.

See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114680-What-are-the-basics-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4659625&viewfull=1#post4659625

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4660784&viewfull=1#post4660784

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

What you will not find is the Calvinist telling a specific person "Our Lord died for you, {Bob, Mary, Pete, Jane, etc.}" for we understand that Our Lord's active and passive obedience was particularly intended to actually save, not potentially save, those so given to Him by God the Father, persons (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9) that no man can number from among the peoples of the world (Rev. 7:9). We also understand that we do not know exactly who God has chosen (Deut. 29:29), so we obey the command to preach the Good News to all.

Calvinists also reject the hypothetical aspect (the potentially saving view of the Atonement, of the anti-Calvinist's view:

Hypothetical universalism teaches that God gave Jesus Christ to save all men on condition they believe; but He has not elected all men to believe and be saved. This means that God gives Jesus Christ to all men but then takes Him away from some. Election comes in to exclude the application of the merits of Christ to a whole class of men. Christ's merits call for faith and justification but God says "No" to His dearly beloved Son. Hypothetical universalism teaches that God is not well-pleased to save all men for whom Christ died. This is a distortion of the gospel of free grace.

AMR

The statement by Luther may sound like it comes in the context of dealing with the argument that whatever Scripture commands (imperative mood) assumes the possibility of fulfillment. In other words, as you are arguing, ought implies can by logical or moral necessity. Such an argument assumes that God—either because of his knowledge or his moral character—never demands of anyone that which lies beyond their ability to perform. Your argument reads this belief into the imperatives of Scripture.

But that's not a logical implication of the imperative mood at all. There is no "moral necessity" for God to limit his commands to that which men can naturally perform.

(from here)

As you will know, Jesus himself uses the analogy of the bronze snake that Moses raised up for the dying Israelites so that they could be healed. All were provided for and the source points to all men in the target since all men are sinners.

You say:

The unbeliever sins with every breath they draw. Indeed, unbelievers have no moral ability to choose rightly as relates to seeking the righteousness of God. It is only when God does something, quickens these morally dead persons from spiritual death to life (regeneration), that they are instantaneously able and will indeed then choose to believe. Again, ought does not imply can.

but Jesus clearly is saying that all who are infected may look. You say 'can't', Jesus says 'can'.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

As you will know, Jesus himself uses the analogy of the bronze snake that Moses raised up for the dying Israelites so that they could be healed. All were provided for and the source points to all men in the target since all men are sinners.

You say:



but Jesus clearly is saying that all who are infected may look. You say 'can't', Jesus says 'can'.

 

[Sonnet]

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

John 3:14-15
“Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

 

[Sonnet]

The problem, I would say, isn't with being born a sinner - rather, it's when one combines that with the assertion that not all have been given a chance to be healed. If God literally hated Esau, Pharaoh, Judas and those considered not elect then I wonder where that leaves God's love as a model for His creation?

 

[Sonnet]

Interesting post.

There is indeed, a contrast there, between the former, and the latter parts of that chapter.

Meaning, either that one needs to be saved in order to see those things, or one does not need to be saved in order to understand those things, and the Apostle Paul is actually talking about something else.

Something which the poor translation you quoted has missed.

The translation of that passage in the KJV is correct.

The lower case spirit is because a "mind," perspective, or outlook on a thing, is what is being referred to, as well as contrasted.

And of the several key contrasts Paul is pointing out there, one of those is based on the principle that the natural man he is referring to there refers to the Believer's tendency, if left unchecked, to look at things through his natural man - his tendency to mind things as the wisdom of this world does, in contrast to what he is called to do, based on, and because of Romans 5:8's fact, as a summary.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Verse 3 is an example of the impact of said mind renewal on one's thought life, beliefs, values, perspective, attitude towards others, etc., that looking at all things in light of Romans 5:8 is meant to result in, in the Believer.

And that is the first part of 1 Corinthians 1- 3 that Paul is going on about, and that he laments they have remained nowhere near having grown in.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The Corinthians had remained and or become even more so, all about "just giving so and so a dose of his own medicine..."

The result of their having so remained at the newbie Believer's tendency to look at things through the natural man being the result that Paul found they were nowhere near even ready for much on The Mystery of The Cross (it's intended, "our glory" aspect) that The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of The Cross is not only merely the beginning of, but the training ground in, towards being ready for receiving, understanding, towards walking in, this other aspect of The Cross unto said other aspect's Eternal Glory.

And obviously, he had shared some of said Mystery with them, but not much, and what little he had shared with them had been rendered useless as to its entended enablement, by their having allowed themselves their natural man, wisdom of this world tendency, or focus.

In all that, I continue to find the following a fascinating dynamic...something I was thinking on, this morning, after running into a Charismatic Believer I'd not seen in a while, and given what he automatically went into - his self-deluded, thin-skinned political views.

Afterwards, I found myself reflecting on how that the Corinthians would not only have been die-hard Trump supporters, but just as thin skinned now also; had their obvious wisdom of this world as to that kind of thing been pointed out to them.

Note an aspect of The Mystery - about the Body's role where Angels will be concerned, and yet note what their petty focus has made of its intended training in the here and now, to become - which only negatively impacts the reward of their inheritance in Eternity.

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Such was not to have been their focus.

For it is the Eternal focus that both trains and enables the Believer not only in the here and now, but towards his or her fitness for service in Eternity.

This kind of Eternal focus here...

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Such is the case today - even on TOL - many within the Body have simply gone so long in their giving themselves over to their natural man tendency, that they actually could not but find that so vile and petty an individual as Donald Trump, speaks to them.

There is no sense in speaking to such about those higher Mystery truths the Apostle Paul had wanted to share with the Corinthians but had had to lament they'd not progressed much beyond "Christ died for our sins" - for they had, in fact, turned even that, into an "us versus them" - within their own assemblies...

It is fascinating how relevant that letter remains to this very day.

Again, Sonnet, interesting post.

And that translation is off.

In this - Romans 5:8 towards you and I, both - towards all of us!

Sorry Danoh - I'm not really following you. My KJV has 'Spirit' not 'spirit'.

 

[Sonnet]

Do you know what the Kingdom message is? Yes Jn 3:16 speaks of the death atonement but in that context Yeshua is defining salvation to a Jewish teacher whose belief system (first century Pharisaic Judaism) taught him that by Jewish birth he was already saved. When he asked Yeshua "how can I be born again when I am old," nicodemos having been born again 4 times (bar mitzvah, marriage, Pharisee, and teacher of a Pharisaic school), didn't know that there was a 7th new birth and Yeshua teaches him that being born of the spirit was necessary for salvation. So yes the chapter described the love of God for the world and that belief in Yeshua was what saves but that message was not the message sent out in chapter 11.


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You mean Matthew 11.

I think you are talking about the requirement for the Jews to...finally...say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'

Is that right?

Matthew 23:39

 

[Danoh]

If you are correct, why does Jesus enjoin folk to do the very thing you say they cannot; even to those he explicitly describes as not his sheep (indeed, those who have just attempted to stone him)?

John 10:36b-38
Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

(Verses 25-26 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.)

The various "drawing" verses are favorite Calvinist proof-texts.

But only due to the Calvinist's error.

As in the above, the Son was actually asserting those works of His were the means by which the Father was drawing Israel's attention to the validity of the Son.

Their intention was to work the work of proving to Israel that He was that Prophet that Moses had Prophesied about.

And this principle of drawing them unto Him through said miraculous works of the Father, is not only a principle straight out of their Law and reiterated in Isaiah 8, but one that is often both illustrated and reiterated throughout Matthew thru John.

But the Calvinists once more misread their erroneous election doctrine into all that.

For that is all the Calvinist error amounts to - individuals who read Calvin's mis-interpretations and or their own, into various passages, followed by all the reasoning they then build into the thing, which is why it makes sense to such.

And as with any faulty reasoning; once it gets a hold of one; once one is succinctly entrenched in it; once one has boxed oneself within its walls: walls long since fortified countless times over by much more of the same type of ill-formed reasoning by which such ended up sucked into their own vacuum to begin with - there is no reasoning with it that will get through to it.

Sort of like attempting to reason with a person long since entrenched in a double-standard.

There is no pointing it out to such, either; and there is also no reasoning with such.

To attempt to reason with either of those two kinds of self-sustaining vacuums, only ends up setting off in such, each's long since built-in ability to rise up and fortify itself further.

To be sure, if anything; such is a fascinating dynamic to both observe, and to ever strive to heed its obvious warning...

Rom. 5:8.

 

[Sonnet]

The various "drawing" verses are favorite Calvinist proof-texts.

But only due to the Calvinist's error.

As in the above, the Son was actually asserting those works of His were the means by which the Father was drawing Israel's attention to the validity of the Son.

Their intention was to work the work of proving to Israel that He was that Prophet that Moses had Prophesied about.

And this principle of drawing them unto Him through said miraculous works of the Father, is not only a principle straight out of their Law and reiterated in Isaiah 8, but one that is often both illustrated and reiterated throughout Matthew thru John.

But the Calvinists once more misread their erroneous election doctrine into all that.

For that is all the Calvinist error amounts to - individuals who read Calvin's mis-interpretations and or their own, into various passages, followed by all the reasoning they then build into the thing, which is why it makes sense to such.

And as with any faulty reasoning; once it gets a hold of one; once one is succinctly entrenched in it; once one has boxed oneself within its walls: walls long since fortified countless times over by much more of the same type of ill-formed reasoning by which such ended up sucked into their own vacuum to begin with - there is no reasoning with it that will get through to it.

Sort of like attempting to reason with a person long since entrenched in a double-standard.

There is no pointing it out to such, either; and there is also no reasoning with such.

To attempt to reason with either of those two kinds of self-sustaining vacuums, only ends up setting off in such, each's long since built-in ability to rise up and fortify itself further.

To be sure, if anything; such is a fascinating dynamic to both observe, and to ever strive to heed its obvious warning...

Rom. 5:8.

John 11
38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39“Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.”

40Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

 

[Danoh]

Sorry Danoh - I'm not really following you. My KJV has 'Spirit' not 'spirit'.

You posted "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

The KJV's is...

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And Paul was adressing that to Believers - he was not talking about lost people there.

And he will continue on into that in chapter 3.

He was addressing their having remained in the newbie Believer's tendency to look at things from where the newbie used to, back when he was unsaved - from the natural man's tendency and what it results in - the wisdom of this world, or...one's reliance on one's own reasonings and natural senses.

That was why the Corinthians were so into the need for "payback" and it's support of same in those whom their natural man focus had concluded were of their own number, in contrast to those their natural man focus had concluded were not.

The result being that all they could amount to was knowing ABOUT that hidden wisdom beyond the Cross.

They were no where near ready to serve the Lord from within, and based on, said advanced information.

He was addressing saved people there; not the lost.

Those two translations are not...the same.

Nevertheless, the new man's focus - Romans 5:8 - towards you and I both!

 

[Danoh]

John 11
38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39“Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.”

40Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

Yep.

Isaiah 8:10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us. 8:11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way, 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

In short...

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Nihilo]

I understand you point. Nevertheless, did Christ die for all men without exception?

1. What does Sacred Scripture say? (You're fully investigating this question ITT already.)
1. What does the Church say? (1Ti3:15KJV, not sure what you've been doing with this.)

Numbers 1. and 1. ought to agree. If they don't, you've made an error somewhere.

 

[intojoy]

You mean Matthew 11.

I think you are talking about the requirement for the Jews to...finally...say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'

Is that right?

Matthew 23:39

I'd have to go back and look. But my point is that the kingdom of heaven program for Israel is what you seem to not see, and what amr rejects.

Sonnet, if you stick to a strict literal interpretation of scripture you wind up where I am.

That is why I can answer a of your objections. Because although something might make more sense to us we cannot abandon what is being said. We must allow scripture to say what it says. The question is this; How does the divine sovereignty of God harmonize with man's free will? And the answer is that God divinely enables the elect to be able to respond to the gospel is a salvific sense, I exercised my limited free will to make a choice contrary to my sin nature. The Calvinist thinks God does it all and the Arminian thinks man does it all.. the middle position is that God did do everything but He required faith that he provided to His elect. So how is that fair? How is that unfair?


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[intojoy]

1 Cor. 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preachb to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The Cross didn’t make “the Man”... The “Son of Man” made the cross infinitly Effectual... and then... “He Rose Above It”.

Is there an objection to what I said?


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[Ktoyou]

I exercised my limited free will to make a choice contrary to my sin nature. The Calvinist thinks God does it all and the Arminian thinks man does it all.. the middle position is that God did do everything but He required faith that he provided to His elect. So how is that fair? How is that unfair?


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What you need to do is think out the middle position, then explain it in detail. It will be hard, but theology is hard to learn.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Is there an objection to what I said?


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I thanked your post and responded. Post #438 by [MENTION=7233]Ktoyou[/MENTION] is on the money.

Seriously IJ... “Don’t worry... be happy”. Matthew 6:27

 

[intojoy]

What is the Gospel?

What you need to do is think out the middle position, then explain it in detail. It will be hard, but theology is hard to learn.

Oh, it's not that important. As is Messianic Christology. Something you've lacked your entire wall.
*walky

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