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I have a lot of RCC friends and their sum total of Bible knowledge is somewhere near zero.
What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ha, you're a find one for finding fault on what others post. :down:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep, they've been kept in the dark for centuries.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
glorydaz
Well-known member
I agree. I think it actually means "love less". Jacob preferred Rachael.
Genesis 29:31 And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
"Love and hate" is a Hebrew idiom meaning to love and to love more. "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated" doesn't mean that God actually hated Esau, it just means that He loved Jacob more than he loved Esau, and He did love Esau.
It's a comparison of how much love is shown to two people: God loved Jacob so much that in comparison it was as if He hated Esau.
Jesus used the same Hebrew idiom:
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. - Luke 14:26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke14:26&version=NKJV
He is simply saying "Love Me so much that it's as if you hate your parents and family, and even yourself." He's not telling us to hate our parents, because if that's what he was saying, then he would be contradicting "honor your father and mother."
Derf
Well-known member
I wasn't sure how to reply to this before, EE, and didn't want to draw more attention to the reviling words.
Thanks to Sherman, I feel I can at least try to reply now, at least to a few things.
If AMR and other Calvinists on TOL maintain that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior of the world, which they do, and they say that belief in Jesus Christ is the means by which anyone is saved, then the other stuff is mere fluff in comparison, especially if they still recognize the need to witness to unbelievers with the truth of the gospel, knowing they can't say to anyone truthfully that Jesus did NOT die for them. Most understand and agree with this. In my personal experience, Calvinists tend to get focused on the parts of their doctrine that are not the most important (which non-Calvinists are also wont to do), but I've seen that their hearts are for glorifying Jesus Christ, which you and I also want to do.
My hope was to point out to you that reviling, which Google defines as "criticizing in an abusive or angrily insulting manner." is a sin, according to Paul. My hope was that you would hear and repent. I still hope for that, because if you can leave off the reviling, and form your concerns in words that lift up the truth, rather than bury it in invective, you can have a positive impact. Sonnet and maybe others that will view this thread, would be able to see how you bring the word of God to bear on the issue in good conscience, rather than your own out-of-control emotions. And I would suggest that your reviling is as much of a hindrance to the furtherance of the gospel as you believe AMR's Calvinism is--maybe more.
I say that anyone on TOL that is pushing their own doctrinal beliefs (is there anyone here that doesn't--maybe newbies with legitimate questions are the only ones) is a teacher. And we all bear that heavy responsibility of being teachers--WE ALL NEED TO TAKE EXTRA CARE IN WHAT WE TEACH OTHERS HERE! These words are recorded and viewed for years, maybe by people that are sincerely seeking the truth of Jesus Christ, and we may be the ones that scare them away, or send them down the wrong path, with our words!
If they are false teachers, which I think you are claiming, then their reproach is a badge of honor for you to wear. If they aren't, well, what should you do with their teaching, even if their delivery isn't of the highest quality?
I tend to think that Calvinism, including the L in TULIP, is more self consistent than most other doctrinal systems (not that my experience covers a lot of them), including traditional Arminianism. But the reason there are so many other systems that have a beef with Calvinism is because of the issue you have tried to address here. And to address your single issue, you're going to have to attack the system itself.
I think the reason for the discontinuity is our understanding (or misunderstanding) of time and what it means for God. You've tried to make this a "character of God" issue, when it is really, imho, a "nature of God" issue.
Thanks to Sherman, I feel I can at least try to reply now, at least to a few things.
I agreed with what AMR said in that case, but you know I don't agree with him on everything. WE MUST, AS BELIEVERS, CONTINUE IN CIVIL DIALOG WITH THOSE BELIEVERS WITH WHOM WE DISAGREE, UNLESS THEY ARE IN SIN AND CONTINUE IN SIN AFTER PROPER STEPS HAVE BEEN MADE TO BRING THEM TO REPENTANCE, IN WHICH CASE WE TREAT THEM AS UNBELIEVERS. And would you level such words at an unbeliever? One whom you say Jesus died for?
If AMR and other Calvinists on TOL maintain that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior of the world, which they do, and they say that belief in Jesus Christ is the means by which anyone is saved, then the other stuff is mere fluff in comparison, especially if they still recognize the need to witness to unbelievers with the truth of the gospel, knowing they can't say to anyone truthfully that Jesus did NOT die for them. Most understand and agree with this. In my personal experience, Calvinists tend to get focused on the parts of their doctrine that are not the most important (which non-Calvinists are also wont to do), but I've seen that their hearts are for glorifying Jesus Christ, which you and I also want to do.
I am pleased to hear this, as I feared I would drive a wedge between us. But I also saw that my words did little.
My hope was to point out to you that reviling, which Google defines as "criticizing in an abusive or angrily insulting manner." is a sin, according to Paul. My hope was that you would hear and repent. I still hope for that, because if you can leave off the reviling, and form your concerns in words that lift up the truth, rather than bury it in invective, you can have a positive impact. Sonnet and maybe others that will view this thread, would be able to see how you bring the word of God to bear on the issue in good conscience, rather than your own out-of-control emotions. And I would suggest that your reviling is as much of a hindrance to the furtherance of the gospel as you believe AMR's Calvinism is--maybe more.
This second statement is contradicted by the first. You want to teach me that Calvinism is a heresy, but don't want the label of teacher? Or is it that you don't want the responsibility of being a teacher?
I say that anyone on TOL that is pushing their own doctrinal beliefs (is there anyone here that doesn't--maybe newbies with legitimate questions are the only ones) is a teacher. And we all bear that heavy responsibility of being teachers--WE ALL NEED TO TAKE EXTRA CARE IN WHAT WE TEACH OTHERS HERE! These words are recorded and viewed for years, maybe by people that are sincerely seeking the truth of Jesus Christ, and we may be the ones that scare them away, or send them down the wrong path, with our words!
You're big enough to take it.
If they are false teachers, which I think you are claiming, then their reproach is a badge of honor for you to wear. If they aren't, well, what should you do with their teaching, even if their delivery isn't of the highest quality?
If what you say is true, explain it. If you can't, go figure out how. Ask for help among like-minded TOL'ers, Christian friends, your pastor. Spewing invectives is not a useful defense of the gospel, but rather a hindrance. It might be likened to stealing from someone because they bore false witness.
I hope that you will desire to be a what-God-wants-is-what-you-get kind of person--we all need to let God mould us into His likeness.
If you believe this to be true, then you should express it, but express it in a way that is respectful of both your theological targets and mindful of the collateral damage to drive-by readers.
I tend to think that Calvinism, including the L in TULIP, is more self consistent than most other doctrinal systems (not that my experience covers a lot of them), including traditional Arminianism. But the reason there are so many other systems that have a beef with Calvinism is because of the issue you have tried to address here. And to address your single issue, you're going to have to attack the system itself.
I think the reason for the discontinuity is our understanding (or misunderstanding) of time and what it means for God. You've tried to make this a "character of God" issue, when it is really, imho, a "nature of God" issue.
Derf
Well-known member
I think the sin of unbelief is indeed a special case--the same special case that Jesus called "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" (Mark 3:29). It is knowing and rejecting the provision of God for your sins, and results in eternal damnation.
I appreciate your tempo and demeanor of response.
There is even a point to my choosing the use of profanity.
Jesus Christ... who is fully God... is a picture of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit suffering out of Love for all humanity. You cannot make this a simple “Nature” of God Matter... Alone...
God displayed utter humility and infinite Love that His very Character... When Jesus said Greater Love has no man than he lay down His life for His friends... if one thinks back... Jesus taught that even heathens... “gentiles” Love their friends... and implored us to do better than simply loving those that love us.
This instantly brings the obvious meaning of 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10 and the like to instant view.
People judge the flesh without refrain... and judge my rough speech... but... how much more vile is it to limit God’s intention of Dying for all and desiring that all should come to repentance as Peter expressed in his second epistle?
It is vile to Limit God’s Love. That is worse than anything I can imagine. It is acceptable though, because many imbibe in Reformed doctrine.
The origin of saying God doesn’t love all is found in Pages that sacrifices their own children to angry God’s. Yet, there are individuals that dare smash God in the face with the lie that God didn’t die with the desire to Save All.
God does offer free will and thus, all don’t accept Him, but He died for ALL.
There is no way to recognize Limited Atonement teaching as anything less than the highest Herresy against Christ Jesus!
Of all vile filth that “is” Calvinism... All not meaning all is the most wicked lie! If Calvinism stopped denying that Jesus died for All... it would be erased as self contradictory.
It is a spiderweb of elitism that reduces the scope of Love that pertains to the Character and Nature of God.
If I wanted to keep hashing this over, I could hide myself by using different communication style and use of Gifs and Videos... but I’m not hiding myself.
I can not and will not abide in the company of men that spit in Jesus Christ’s face by denying that Jesus died for ALL.
The Universalist argument is th foundational argument of Calvinism... IE... a person is a Universalist if they deny Calvinism and especially LA. Well, that is a word twisting work of Satan. In fact, Satan is glorified by Calvinism and I may Love a person, and I may accept them if they struggle with belief or sin. But... a person that thinks they are more knowledgeable than others and proclaims others “heterodox”... yet is htwrodox to the Holy Spirit... well... that is a whole NEW Evil that is more Evil than “Evil”.
I’m tired of pretending that my words make a difference here. There are people on ToL that do not adhere to consistent teaching and waiver for bad reasons... and these people post prolifically!
In other words... there are people that claim teaching authority and argue in favor of herresy...
They don’t care about impacting others positively, or the Character of God...
They only care about being right and defending men... instead of GOD.
Lastly... Jesus is the only teacher... it’s in my Evil.Eye signature scripture, and Jesus specifically tells us this. I am not a teacher and even those that “teach” are not teachers! We are all simply voicing our “opinions”...
I never have nor ever will say I am infallible. You wouldn’t either..
In other words... I don’t care about being right or wrong... but if a person starts marring the Character and Nature of God!!!’ ... Yeah... I tend to go atomic.
It’s not about Me.e ... it’s always about Jesus. All else is vanity.
:e4e:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Still making excuses for his inordinate PRIDE.
Your pride, EVIL ONE, is uglier than anything preached here.
I sincerely want to stay red... as in... don’t ever make me active again.
Because, I am fully focused and intolerant towards the heresy that is plain as Day!
I’ve always enjoyed it here... but if Sonnets gradual growth of profession of faith that is visible on this thread and his declaration that Jesus died for all, though not all respond to Christ’s gesture of Love... is met by such opposition by a majority of posters here... who th acception that I have noted clearly...
What good is the witness here?
The saved should know their need... and should seek to engage those steeped in Unbelief with the full gates of hell destroying power of the gospel... not some hobbled and taint d imposter of a message... but the indiscriminate, scandalous Love of God Gospel...
That’s how I feel about that.. Derf.
Because, I am fully focused and intolerant towards the heresy that is plain as Day!
I’ve always enjoyed it here... but if Sonnets gradual growth of profession of faith that is visible on this thread and his declaration that Jesus died for all, though not all respond to Christ’s gesture of Love... is met by such opposition by a majority of posters here... who th acception that I have noted clearly...
What good is the witness here?
The saved should know their need... and should seek to engage those steeped in Unbelief with the full gates of hell destroying power of the gospel... not some hobbled and taint d imposter of a message... but the indiscriminate, scandalous Love of God Gospel...
That’s how I feel about that.. Derf.
With exception and other errors I can’t edit... but I’m imperfect.
Jesus died for all, and unbelief pales in blaspheming the Spirit of Grace next to being afraid of declaring Jesus died for all.
Should I be afraid of offending theological friends that are in error?
No... I “Love Jesus more than all I Love” in the way that was brilliantly addressed here!
Jesus died for all, and unbelief pales in blaspheming the Spirit of Grace next to being afraid of declaring Jesus died for all.
Should I be afraid of offending theological friends that are in error?
No... I “Love Jesus more than all I Love” in the way that was brilliantly addressed here!
Potty mouth? Yup
Fallible? You betcha
Human sinner? Oh yeah!
Struggling human being? Oh yes!
Afraid to declare the Gospel of unconditional Love to all? NEVER! To proclaim the simple gospel... in full force... That’s more important than anything I can or could ever do!
LA is a vile boil on Christianity that needs to get lanced ASAP!
Fallible? You betcha
Human sinner? Oh yeah!
Struggling human being? Oh yes!
Afraid to declare the Gospel of unconditional Love to all? NEVER! To proclaim the simple gospel... in full force... That’s more important than anything I can or could ever do!
LA is a vile boil on Christianity that needs to get lanced ASAP!
Limited Atonement ... that (LA)
The deserts that inwardly debate and fail to shamelessly proclaim unconditional Love are in far worse danger Derf.
This in Unbelief will be set before Jesus upon r ssurection and I am certain they will have a chance...
Those that limit Jesus and claim Jesus are in horrific danger of proclaiming Lord, Lord... just as Pate warns.
I have no problem cussing, admitting error or telling someone who is a faith killer that they are abusing the gospel...
But to brothers and sisters that blaspheme the very thing they proclaim... I dare not speak of what I fear as I read scripture with open spiritual eyes!
I dare not wish any to destruction! I deserve destruction!
I beg God for grace to me and grace to all! When the only good ONE desires that all should be saved and none pariah... what else can I desire? I have only one choice and do wish and pray mercy for ALL!!!
To the Humble King of Kings will all consuming Love that is a fire... I give all glory forever and all judgment...
I’m just a broken sinner that was sainted by the murder of my deepest Love!
glorydaz
Well-known member
I can't stand those who preach Universal Salvation.
They give people no reason to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and deny the necessity for being justified by FAITH. Such are the liberals of religion. It's all good, don't worry. God loves everyone, and he died for you no matter what you do, or even whether you believe. There is simply no limit to God's Grace, and there is no need to access that Grace through faith.
Come on in.....everyone is saved, and there is no eternal suffering in hell.
According to the little man in red.:devil:
They give people no reason to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and deny the necessity for being justified by FAITH. Such are the liberals of religion. It's all good, don't worry. God loves everyone, and he died for you no matter what you do, or even whether you believe. There is simply no limit to God's Grace, and there is no need to access that Grace through faith.
Come on in.....everyone is saved, and there is no eternal suffering in hell.
According to the little man in red.:devil:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Liberal Victimology has claimed another lost soul.