John 4:26 KJV
Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
What is Jesus saying here?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
No idea which version you're using, but it isn't the KJV, which does not have "He" at the end.:
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:58&version=KJV
Lot's of KJV's out there.
I used this one: https://tecartabible.com/bible/John+9:8. Which KJV are you using?
Here's some more translations
John 9:9 NKJV
Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he. ”
John 9:9 NASB95
Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the one.”
John 9:9 NRSV
Some were saying, “It is he.” Others were saying, “No, but it is someone like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”
John 9:9 NIV
Some claimed that he was. Others said, “No, he only looks like him.” But he himself insisted, “I am the man.”
This King James Version also translates this passage the same.
John chapter 9 KJV (King James Version)
John chapter 9 KJV (King James Version)
So, I have no clue what you are reading. Maybe you can be more specific.
Regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the blind man was claiming to be the great I AM?
I'm looking at a different verse. And last I checked, there's only one "King James Version."
To clarify, you deny that Christ is God the Son, yes?
Just now realized that you were looking at a different verse. But you have to realize, I never said the translation of 8:58 was King James. I simply pointed out that ego eimi was a common Greek Idiom as well as similar instances to back my claim.
There are multiple KJV's but only one seems to be popular now.
I deny anything that is not Biblical. Can you point out the words "Christ is God the Son" in that order and context? If you do, I will believe it.
The Bible certainly says Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God. I don't see where it says "Christ is God the Son." But I'm fallible, so go ahead and point it out. Or do you put Imperial Roman tradition over that of the Bible?
Christ being God is Biblical.
I don't assert that the phrase "Christ is God the Son" is in the Bible.
I wonder what else you believe that isn't stated explicitly in the Bible in such a clear manner.
Which is why I never argued that it uses the phrase "Christ is God the Son."
It is an argument from silence to say, "because the Bible never uses the phrase, 'Christ is God the Son,' therefore Christ is not God the Son."
Not there. I've been looking really hard for several months now. The opposite is definitely there. Jesus's humanity is affirmed repeatedly. No doubt in the Bible about that.
I don't assert that the phrase "Christ is God the Son" is in the Bible.
Ok, then why is it so important for you that I believe that? We got side-tracked off of John 8:58 to discuss this. I was just pointing out evidence in John 8:58, Jesus was not referring to himself as the great I AM. He was referring to himself as the messiah who was more important that Abraham. Is believing Jesus is the Messiah wrong? Is believing the Jesus being greater than Abraham wrong? What's the problem?
As far as the website, Bob Enyart's church history is way off. Read the Nicene Creed. It should grate on you, " . . . God of God, very God of very God . . ." I can see why Bob wanted to leave it off the website.
I see the huge list of verses which a confused Christian could use to justify his faith in the Nicene Creed. But for me, the verses clearly fall flat.
The Nicene Creed defies logic. Using reason to try to put together an illogical set of beliefs doesn't work unless one is wanting to believe it ahead of time.
Quite a number of things. From an early age, I realized people said things existed in the Bible when it doesn't.
I'm glad to know I wasn't wrong when I said it wasn't there. I make mistakes, so I thought I might have missed something. After all, I believed Jesus was God up until August of last year and then I challenged myself to find it in the Bible and well . . . not there.
I would say the same. As I just mentioned, Christ or Jesus is God the Son is not in the Bible and arguing that it is is arguing from silence. This is especially true when the Jesus repeatedly declares there is one God and the Father is greater than him, Paul warns against Greek philosophy and says that God is the head of Jesus, and John says that anyone denying Jesus was human is the antichrist. They obviously didn't prepare for people saying Jesus is all God and all man or the three persons are one God but individual persons at the same time.
Peter explains it in Acts 2:29-36. Very clearly refutes the Nicene Creed and also clearly explains Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and their relationship to each other. See, I didn't even have to quote 100s of verses. Simple, straight forward explanation.
Derf
Well-known member
Actually, since you pointed out that the bible in several ways identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son, despite not using that phrase directly, its an argument from strawman.
He has already admitted that the Bible does not say "Jesus Christ is God the Son". But go ahead, point to a single verse or passage which clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son.
I can point to a single verse that says he isn't - John 14:28
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Jesus is God. His Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
Do you think that Jesus is a liar here when He says that HE will raise His body from the dead?
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Holy Ghost is God.
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It does NOT say what you CLAIM that it says.
It says that God the Father has a different position than God the Son. That is because God the Son came to earth (i.e., He LOWERED Himself from His position in heaven).
I am also greater than my son... but we are BOTH still HUMAN (we share same NATURE [human], just has Christ and His Father share the same NATURE [God]).
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How about this one:
For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. - John 5:16-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16-23&version=NKJV
The Son should be honored just as the Father is, and anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father.
And this one:
Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:54-59 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:54-59&version=NKJV
And this one:
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.I and My Father are one.”Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. - John 10:22-39 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:22-39&version=NKJV
And plenty more passages where Jesus either equates Himself to God, or says things that only Someone who IS God can say and it not be blasphemy.
A single verse is not enough to establish a matter, especially against the hundreds of verses the support the fact that Christ is, in fact, God the Son.
EVEN MORE SO when the verse you claim says that Christ is not God is used BY TRINITARIANS as part of our doctrine.
So, here's another passage where Jesus describes His relationship with His Father:
“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. - John 14:25-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John14:25-28&version=NKJV
Because of course the Father is greater than the Son, but not in power, but in position.
How is the Father Greater than Jesus while also Equal?
There are often questions about relationship between members within the Trinity. John 14 is usually at the front of the list. I think James White is helpful here in his explanation. “You heard that I said to you, `I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced...
No, but the context clearly shows that Jesus was being cryptic - so much so that just a couple verses later, John explains that he was raised from the dead and did not raise himself from the dead.
Do you think Jesus was lying when he said "the Father is greater than I"?
God - not Jesus, obviously.
Now you're making another tangent to the Holy Spirit. Ever heard of Semitic parallelism? This verse actually counters the Trinitarian belief because Peter does not treat the Holy Spirit and the Father as two separate persons of the Trinity.
So at some point Jesus < the Father - yes or no?
Of course He was. It wasn't time to die yet, let alone on the Cross.
Why do you?
So Jesus lied when He said that He would raise Himself?
In position. Not power or righteousness or anything else.
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Please QUOTE the scripture so that we can discuss it IN DETAIL.
No, Jesus was NOT being "cryptic". That is you hunting for a response.
I explained that... are you going to ignore it?
Jesus said that HE WOULD RAISE HIMSELF. Jesus is God, obviously.
No tangent... you claimed that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit were all different in NATURE.
Ever heard of misdirection?
Silly.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share a SINGLE NAME (i.e. authority).
Please identify your affiliation: Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, some other, which one is it?
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Once again, in POSITION and NOT in NATURE.