What is Jesus saying here?

JudgeRightly

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Hilltrot

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No idea which version you're using, but it isn't the KJV, which does not have "He" at the end.:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:58&version=KJV
Lot's of KJV's out there.

I used this one: https://tecartabible.com/bible/John+9:8. Which KJV are you using?

Here's some more translations

John 9:9 NKJV
Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he. ”

John 9:9 NASB95
Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the one.”

John 9:9 NRSV
Some were saying, “It is he.” Others were saying, “No, but it is someone like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”

John 9:9 NIV
Some claimed that he was. Others said, “No, he only looks like him.” But he himself insisted, “I am the man.”

This King James Version also translates this passage the same.


So, I have no clue what you are reading. Maybe you can be more specific.

Regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the blind man was claiming to be the great I AM?
 

JudgeRightly

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Lot's of KJV's out there.

I'm looking at a different verse. And last I checked, there's only one "King James Version."

To clarify, you deny that Christ is God the Son, yes?
 

Hilltrot

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I'm looking at a different verse. And last I checked, there's only one "King James Version."
Just now realized that you were looking at a different verse. But you have to realize, I never said the translation of 8:58 was King James. I simply pointed out that ego eimi was a common Greek Idiom as well as similar instances to back my claim.

There are multiple KJV's but only one seems to be popular now.

To clarify, you deny that Christ is God the Son, yes?
I deny anything that is not Biblical. Can you point out the words "Christ is God the Son" in that order and context? If you do, I will believe it.

The Bible certainly says Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God. I don't see where it says "Christ is God the Son." But I'm fallible, so go ahead and point it out. Or do you put Imperial Roman tradition over that of the Bible?
 

JudgeRightly

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I deny anything that is not Biblical.

Christ being God is Biblical.

Can you point out the words "Christ is God the Son" in that order and context?

I don't assert that the phrase "Christ is God the Son" is in the Bible.


If you do, I will believe it.

I wonder what else you believe that isn't stated explicitly in the Bible in such a clear manner.

I don't see where it says "Christ is God the Son."

Which is why I never argued that it uses the phrase "Christ is God the Son."

It is an argument from silence to say, "because the Bible never uses the phrase, 'Christ is God the Son,' therefore Christ is not God the Son."
 

Hilltrot

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Christ being God is Biblical.
Not there. I've been looking really hard for several months now. The opposite is definitely there. Jesus's humanity is affirmed repeatedly. No doubt in the Bible about that.

I don't assert that the phrase "Christ is God the Son" is in the Bible.


Ok, then why is it so important for you that I believe that? We got side-tracked off of John 8:58 to discuss this. I was just pointing out evidence in John 8:58, Jesus was not referring to himself as the great I AM. He was referring to himself as the messiah who was more important that Abraham. Is believing Jesus is the Messiah wrong? Is believing the Jesus being greater than Abraham wrong? What's the problem?

As far as the website, Bob Enyart's church history is way off. Read the Nicene Creed. It should grate on you, " . . . God of God, very God of very God . . ." I can see why Bob wanted to leave it off the website.

I see the huge list of verses which a confused Christian could use to justify his faith in the Nicene Creed. But for me, the verses clearly fall flat.

The Nicene Creed defies logic. Using reason to try to put together an illogical set of beliefs doesn't work unless one is wanting to believe it ahead of time.

I wonder what else you believe that isn't stated explicitly in the Bible in such a clear manner.
Quite a number of things. From an early age, I realized people said things existed in the Bible when it doesn't.

Which is why I never argued that it uses the phrase "Christ is God the Son."
I'm glad to know I wasn't wrong when I said it wasn't there. I make mistakes, so I thought I might have missed something. After all, I believed Jesus was God up until August of last year and then I challenged myself to find it in the Bible and well . . . not there.

It is an argument from silence to say, "because the Bible never uses the phrase, 'Christ is God the Son,' therefore Christ is not God the Son."

I would say the same. As I just mentioned, Christ or Jesus is God the Son is not in the Bible and arguing that it is is arguing from silence. This is especially true when the Jesus repeatedly declares there is one God and the Father is greater than him, Paul warns against Greek philosophy and says that God is the head of Jesus, and John says that anyone denying Jesus was human is the antichrist. They obviously didn't prepare for people saying Jesus is all God and all man or the three persons are one God but individual persons at the same time.

Peter explains it in Acts 2:29-36. Very clearly refutes the Nicene Creed and also clearly explains Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and their relationship to each other. See, I didn't even have to quote 100s of verses. Simple, straight forward explanation.
 

Derf

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It is an argument from silence to say, "because the Bible never uses the phrase, 'Christ is God the Son,' therefore Christ is not God the Son."
Actually, since you pointed out that the bible in several ways identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son, despite not using that phrase directly, its an argument from strawman.
 

Hilltrot

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Actually, since you pointed out that the bible in several ways identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son, despite not using that phrase directly, its an argument from strawman.
He has already admitted that the Bible does not say "Jesus Christ is God the Son". But go ahead, point to a single verse or passage which clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son.

I can point to a single verse that says he isn't - John 14:28
 

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Peter explains it in Acts 2:29-36. Very clearly refutes the Nicene Creed and also clearly explains Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and their relationship to each other. See, I didn't even have to quote 100s of verses. Simple, straight forward explanation.
Jesus is God. His Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

Do you think that Jesus is a liar here when He says that HE will raise His body from the dead?
Joh 2:19-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Act 13:30 KJV But God raised him from the dead:
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
Act 5:3-4 KJV But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
The Holy Ghost is God.
 

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He has already admitted that the Bible does not say "Jesus Christ is God the Son". But go ahead, point to a single verse or passage which clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son.

I can point to a single verse that says he isn't - John 14:28
It does NOT say what you CLAIM that it says.

It says that God the Father has a different position than God the Son. That is because God the Son came to earth (i.e., He LOWERED Himself from His position in heaven).

I am also greater than my son... but we are BOTH still HUMAN (we share same NATURE [human], just has Christ and His Father share the same NATURE [God]).
 

JudgeRightly

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He has already admitted that the Bible does not say "Jesus Christ is God the Son". But go ahead, point to a single verse or passage which clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son.

How about this one:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. - John 5:16-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16-23&version=NKJV

The Son should be honored just as the Father is, and anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father.

And this one:

Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:54-59 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:54-59&version=NKJV

And this one:

Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.I and My Father are one.”Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. - John 10:22-39 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:22-39&version=NKJV

And plenty more passages where Jesus either equates Himself to God, or says things that only Someone who IS God can say and it not be blasphemy.

I can point to a single verse that says he isn't - John 14:28

A single verse is not enough to establish a matter, especially against the hundreds of verses the support the fact that Christ is, in fact, God the Son.

EVEN MORE SO when the verse you claim says that Christ is not God is used BY TRINITARIANS as part of our doctrine.

So, here's another passage where Jesus describes His relationship with His Father:

“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. - John 14:25-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John14:25-28&version=NKJV

Because of course the Father is greater than the Son, but not in power, but in position.

 

Hilltrot

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Jesus is God. His Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

Do you think that Jesus is a liar here when He says that HE will raise His body from the dead?

No, but the context clearly shows that Jesus was being cryptic - so much so that just a couple verses later, John explains that he was raised from the dead and did not raise himself from the dead.

Do you think Jesus was lying when he said "the Father is greater than I"?

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

God - not Jesus, obviously.

Act 5:3-4 KJV But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

The Holy Ghost is God.

Now you're making another tangent to the Holy Spirit. Ever heard of Semitic parallelism? This verse actually counters the Trinitarian belief because Peter does not treat the Holy Spirit and the Father as two separate persons of the Trinity.
 

Hilltrot

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It does NOT say what you CLAIM that it says.

It says that God the Father has a different position than God the Son. That is because God the Son came to earth (i.e., He LOWERED Himself from His position in heaven).

I am also greater than my son... but we are BOTH still HUMAN (we share same NATURE [human], just has Christ and His Father share the same NATURE [God]).

So at some point Jesus < the Father - yes or no?
 

JudgeRightly

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No, but the context clearly shows that Jesus was being cryptic

Of course He was. It wasn't time to die yet, let alone on the Cross.

- so much so that just a couple verses later, John explains that he was raised from the dead and did not raise himself from the dead.

Do you think Jesus was lying when he said "the Father is greater than I"?

Why do you?

God - not Jesus, obviously.

So Jesus lied when He said that He would raise Himself?
 

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No, but the context clearly shows that Jesus was being cryptic - so much so that just a couple verses later, John explains that he was raised from the dead and did not raise himself from the dead.
Please QUOTE the scripture so that we can discuss it IN DETAIL.

No, Jesus was NOT being "cryptic". That is you hunting for a response.
Do you think Jesus was lying when he said "the Father is greater than I"?
I explained that... are you going to ignore it?
God - not Jesus, obviously.
Jesus said that HE WOULD RAISE HIMSELF. Jesus is God, obviously.
Now you're making another tangent to the Holy Spirit.
No tangent... you claimed that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit were all different in NATURE.
Ever heard of Semitic parallelism?
Ever heard of misdirection?
This verse actually counters the Trinitarian belief because Peter does not treat the Holy Spirit and the Father as two separate persons of the Trinity.
Silly.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share a SINGLE NAME (i.e. authority).
Mat 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Please identify your affiliation: Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, some other, which one is it?
 
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