What is holding us back?

[oatmeal]

Jesus Christ, when He walked among us, was talking to the Jews, as you agree.

But....things changed when the nation rejected their Lord and Saviour.

We see the change for ourselves as we read Acts. Mid Acts to be precise.
Jesus Christ is still the way, but the way, itself has changed.
Now it's through faith in His blood. That's a big change, wouldn't you say?

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

God turned to the Gentiles. When He did that, the RISEN LORD gave Paul the words to speak to the Gentiles. This is why Musty pointed you to Paul.

The way to God was no longer working righteousness and accepting Jesus Christ as Messiah, but through God's Grace apart from Israel. The twelve continued to preach to the CIRCUMCISION (Jews), and Paul preached his Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.

Things that differ, Oats.

Well, now we are getting somewhere.

So Jesus is the way to the Father for Christians in spite of musterions guesswork that Jesus is the not the way to the Father for all, if they choose to get to the Father

As an extra bonus, note John 14:6 does not say the way to God, for anyone could pray to God, but to have God as Father, is a far greater truth than simply sacrificing animals, keeping the law and praying to God as servants

 

[JudgeRightly]

So the signs and wonders and miracles done to the Gentiles did not benefit the Gentiles?

What Gentile wouldn't appreciate being healed of blindness or palsy or leprosy?

The healings and miracles done to the believing Gentiles, (Christians formerly Gentiles) benefited those Gentiles.

If you look at ALL the miracles done in the Bible, and you measure the response of the people who had direct contact with the miracles, and those who heard about the miracles second hand, You'll find that most of those who were directly affected did not benefit from the miracle, and in fact it caused them to turn away from God, not toward Him.

As it is written:

Jesus answered them and said, [JESUS]“Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.[/JESUS] - John 6:26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John6:26&version=NKJV

 

[oatmeal]

Jesus Christ, when He walked among us, was talking to the Jews, as you agree.

But....things changed when the nation rejected their Lord and Saviour.

We see the change for ourselves as we read Acts. Mid Acts to be precise.
Jesus Christ is still the way, but the way, itself has changed.
Now it's through faith in His blood. That's a big change, wouldn't you say?

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

God turned to the Gentiles. When He did that, the RISEN LORD gave Paul the words to speak to the Gentiles. This is why Musty pointed you to Paul.

The way to God was no longer working righteousness and accepting Jesus Christ as Messiah, but through God's Grace apart from Israel. The twelve continued to preach to the CIRCUMCISION (Jews), and Paul preached his Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.

Things that differ, Oats.

We are not saved by accepting Jesus as the messiah, that gets you nothing.

Romans 10:9 is very clear.

Seems like religious people want Jesus as a savior from sin, but not to be lord in their lives.

Accepting Jesus as savior does not get people saved.

Confessing as lord and believing that

a. Jesus raised himself from the dead

or

b. God raised him from the dead

gets you saved

It all hinges on Jesus Christ being the way the truth and the life and that he alone is the way to the Father

 

[JudgeRightly]

We are not saved by accepting Jesus as the messiah, that gets you nothing.

Romans 10:9 is very clear.

Seems like religious people want Jesus as a savior from sin, but not to be lord in their lives.

Accepting Jesus as savior does not get people saved.

Confessing as lord and believing that

a. Jesus raised himself from the dead

or

b. God raised him from the dead

gets you saved

It all hinges on Jesus Christ being the way the truth and the life and that he alone is the way to the Father

If Jesus is a liar, then we shouldn't trust Him in regards to our eternal souls.

So, Oatsy, is Jesus a liar when He says that HE HIMSELF will raise Himself from the dead?

 

[glorydaz]

So the signs and wonders and miracles done to the Gentiles did not benefit the Gentiles?

I didn't say that.

What Gentile wouldn't appreciate being healed of blindness or palsy or leprosy?

I'm sure anyone would.

The healings and miracles done to the believing Gentiles, (Christians formerly Gentiles) benefited those Gentiles.

That wasn't what I said. I said they were done FOR the Jews. Because, the Jews required a sign. God went above and beyond to convince the Jews. He did it with the manna from heaven. He did it with the death angel passing over their houses.

But, you've brought up a very interesting subject, Oats.

What do miracles actually accomplish?

Remember, faith is based on things unseen.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, now we are getting somewhere.

So Jesus is the way to the Father for Christians in spite of musterions guesswork that Jesus is the not the way to the Father for all, if they choose to get to the Father

Your guesswork concerning what Musty said is downright silly. Please try to focus.
You already admitted that Jesus was speaking to the Jews when He walked among us.
Why then do you continue to think He was speaking to you?

You can't have it both ways. Or, maybe you don't know that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, and continued to appear to him with the words that would lead to OUR salvation. :think:

As an extra bonus, note John 14:6 does not say the way to God, for anyone could pray to God, but to have God as Father, is a far greater truth than simply sacrificing animals, keeping the law and praying to God as servants

Yeah, anyone can pray to God, just like anyone can pray to the stars. No one is talking about sacrificing animals or keeping the Law. Try to avoid running down every rabbit trail that pops into your head.

Unless you recognize the DEITY of the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be stuck trying to have a "relationship" with your Creator God. Not recognizing the Godhead has already got you in a world of hurt.

 

[oatmeal]

If Jesus is a liar, then we shouldn't trust Him in regards to our eternal souls.

So, Oatsy, is Jesus a liar when He says that HE HIMSELF will raise Himself from the dead?

If you think that what Jesus said there is literal, rather than a figure of speech, then you cannot possibly understand verses like

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who did the the miracles and signs? God

by whom did God do them? by Jesus of Nazareth.

Mark 11:22-24

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Who does the believing? Whosoever does the believing.

He shall have whatsoever he saith, but who does the doing?

From whence comes the power? Who actually moves the mountain?

Exodus 14:13-18,21

13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

14 The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

15 And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.


Did Moses do the works that parted the Red Sea? Nope, He believed God and God did it with an ease

All Moses had to do is to lift up his rod and stretch out and stretch out his hand over the sea and divide it.

Of course, you could say Moses did it because God made Moses to be a god, Exodus 7:1

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet

In I Thessalonians 4:16 a

we read "the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Does it say that God or Jesus will raise these dead?

No, it doesn't in fact it is very clear that the dead shall rise, not that they will be raised.

So, since these dead shall rise they are God as well?

When we study God's word we cannot afford to isolate bits of text to support our personal likes and dislikes

 

[oatmeal]

Your guesswork concerning what Musty said is downright silly. Please try to focus.
You already admitted that Jesus was speaking to the Jews when He walked among us.
Why then do you continue to think He was speaking to you?

You can't have it both ways. Or, maybe you don't know that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, and continued to appear to him with the words that would lead to OUR salvation. :think:



Yeah, anyone can pray to God, just like anyone can pray to the stars. No one is talking about sacrificing animals or keeping the Law. Try to avoid running down every rabbit trail that pops into your head.

Unless you recognize the DEITY of the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be stuck trying to have a "relationship" with your Creator God. Not recognizing the Godhead has already got you in a world of hurt.

John 14:12 is Jesus speaking about those who believe on him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Since I believe on him, he is speaking about me and quite literally to me as one that believes on him

Do you not believe on him?

If musterion is right and that Jesus is speaking only to the Judeans by which he seems to assert that we have no business learning from his words, then I have to ask

John 3:16

"God so loved the world"

Then is the world only the nation of Israel, the lost sheep of the house of Israel or does it include the Gentiles in this world as well?

If musty is right, then John 3:16 says God only loves Judeans not Gentiles.

Is that where you want to go?

And that whosoever refers to Judeans only?

Well, it doesn't take a Biblical scholar or an apostle to figure out the implications of musterisons theology

Unless you recognize the DEITY of the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be stuck trying to have a "relationship" with your Creator God.

I do have a relationship with the Creator who is God.

He is my Father and I am a son of His.

I John 3:1-2

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That is why you don't know me for who I am. because your mind is still stuck in the world. Oh, you can see some light but you are not yet in the light when it comes to who God is and isn't and who Jesus Christ is and isn't

 

[clefty]

Liar.

Why you resorting to that? LOL

Why not show me what you think is contradicted instead?

Perhaps that study did NOT clarify it for you...those alleged contradictions being the wall you wish to reinsert between jew and goyim IN HIM...the very wall He removed...Peter clarifying He saw NO DISTINCTION between jews and goyim as we are all citizens now of Israel...IN HIM

 

[clefty]

I can see this discussion is too much for you to handle, clefty.

Our Lord never once said He was sent to the Romans. :chuckle:

The irony of the 3 options I gave you that you chose Romans of which there were believers...one with a faith He had not yet seen in Israel...

So for you it is “For God so loved the world only jews that whosoever any jew who believes should not perish but have eternal life...” ?

So again...which of those epistles were written to you? Assuming you are not roman...but just following its tradition...

 

[clefty]

Because he's an attention seeker. He has no knowledge of Scripture, and doesn't want any. :sigh:

And now resorting to the slandering gossiping...typical...

 

[clefty]

No one plans on following your rabbit trail on the world wide web. We are here to discuss Scripture, and you can either participate or leave.

Rabbit trail?

His way is narrow it is true...not chosen by everyone...though it is for everyone...

But maybe since He wasnt addressing you specifically?

That study shows that wall between jews and goyim is indeed removed and we are citizens of Israel...grafted into the trunk its roots...

But you expect to not bare similar fruits as it was not dispensed to you to do so?

 

[clefty]

Maybe he's reading Romans 1 again.

[MENTION=12603]oatmeal[/MENTION] Please ask the mods to remove the thread pests like Clefty so we can continue our discussion.

Oh my...

Please don’t let me interrupt you...yours

Do continue...

 

[clefty]

John 14:12 is Jesus speaking about those who believe on him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Since I believe on him, he is speaking about me and quite literally to me as one that believes on him

Do you not believe on him?

If musterion is right and that Jesus is speaking only to the Judeans by which he seems to assert that we have no business learning from his words, then I have to ask

John 3:16

"God so loved the world"

Then is the world only the nation of Israel, the lost sheep of the house of Israel or does it include the Gentiles in this world as well?

If musty is right, then John 3:16 says God only loves Judeans not Gentiles.

Is that where you want to go?

And that whosoever refers to Judeans only?

Well, it doesn't take a Biblical scholar or an apostle to figure out the implications of musterisons theology



I do have a relationship with the Creator who is God.

He is my Father and I am a son of His.

I John 3:1-2

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That is why you don't know me for who I am. because your mind is still stuck in the world. Oh, you can see some light but you are not yet in the light when it comes to who God is and isn't and who Jesus Christ is and isn't

Peter is clear:

“But in every nation WHOEVER fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” Acts 10:35

“...WHOEVER believes in Him will receive remission of sins” Acts 10:43

Yah made no distinction between jews and goyim Acts 15:9

 

[glorydaz]

John 14:12 is Jesus speaking about those who believe on him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Since I believe on him, he is speaking about me and quite literally to me as one that believes on him

Do you not believe on him?

Wow....so you're raising the dead and making the blind see?


Seriously, Oats, you have a real credibility issue going on. I would tell you it's simply an inability to rightly divide scripture, but you really don't want to hear that, do you?


BTW Get a video of your miracles and I'll watch with great interest.

 

[glorydaz]

The irony of the 3 options I gave you that you chose Romans of which there were believers...one with a faith He had not yet seen in Israel...

Irony? :chuckle:

What an active imagination you have. It's simply the easiest to spell. :duh:

You aren't worth any further effort.

 

[glorydaz]

If musty is right, then John 3:16 says God only loves Judeans not Gentiles.

Is that where you want to go?

And that whosoever refers to Judeans only?

God loves the world, but it was through the Jews that the world was to hear the gospel. Which is why Jesus was speaking to the Jews....not you. I repeat.... Which is why, AND YOU ADMITTED, Jesus was speaking to the Jews. "Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Not you, but the "fathers"....Abraham etc. That is NOT YOU, Oats.

But, you folks don't understand that, do you? Not everything is about you.


Since the Jews failed, (people like you don't understand that) then God turned to the Gentiles.

Perhaps you need to read the whole book instead of this silly dabbling you persist in. :think:

 

[JudgeRightly]

Wow....so you're raising the dead and making the blind see?


Seriously, Oats, you have a real credibility issue going on. I would tell you it's simply an inability to rightly divide scripture, but you really don't want to hear that, do you?


BTW Get a video of your miracles and I'll watch with great interest.

Isn't it ironic that the number one thing Oatsy wants us to do is believe that he has experienced miracles, yet cannot bring forth any evidence (let alone proof) that miracles happen every day because what he believes is correct.

 

[glorydaz]

Isn't it ironic that the number one thing Oatsy wants us to do is believe that he has experienced miracles, yet cannot bring forth any evidence (let alone proof) that miracles happen every day because what he believes is correct.

The funniest part is that I've never heard him ever claim to do any such thing.

 

[Aimiel]

We'll be raptured before we see more signs and wonders like were present during the time of the Apostles.

I hardly think that the Body of Christ can get the job done that's set before us without His Spirit giving us the power needed to arise in faith and become what is described in Scripture...

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The measure of every part making increase of the body (of Christ) unto the edifying of itself in love; that, to me, seems impossible, especially seeing how divided the Body of Christ is worldwide, without the guidance and intercession of The Holy Ghost. We haven't yet come to be a 'perfect man' befitting the fullness of Christ, but I do believe that He is coming for a victorious church, so we must.