Was Jesus a man of color .

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Jesus dying for our sins isn't Jesus being crucified to save us, Jesus was put to death whilst trying to save us who are sinful, by the gospel, by the word of God, preaching with the hope that many would believe and be saved from the world, and he was murdered for it, thus he died for our sins, Jesus lived to save us, we are saved by his life. Jesus was dead to the flesh and alive in God, preaching the truth hoping to save as many as would believe in him, and he was murdered for it at the hands of wicked men with wicked hearts who's father was the devil.

As I said, the parable of the wicked vine servants is about Jesus, just from that we can see it was wrong to kill him. And Paul clearly says in 2 Thessalonians that they pleased not God.

You say that I contradict myself, no, it's not me saying that they pleased not God, it's Paul. And so did Stephen when he said, they were betrayers and murders because they have slain our Lord Jesus. And there's more verses in the Bible showing that it was wrong to kill Jesus, it was a sin and God has nothing to do with sin.

Life saves, death doesn't save anyone.

Then by your belief Jesus died for nothing.

And when Jesus said it is finished, that meant nothing to you either.

etc etc.

When it says Jesus died for our sins it means just that.

Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

But you are twisting it to say Jesus died because we killed Him which was a sin.

Don't you want God to forgive your sins?. Do you want to go to Hell?

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus dying for our sins isn't Jesus being crucified to save us, Jesus was put to death whilst trying to save us who are sinful, by the gospel, by the word of God, preaching with the hope that many would believe and be saved from the world, and he was murdered for it, thus he died for our sins, Jesus lived to save us, we are saved by his life. Jesus was dead to the flesh and alive in God, preaching the truth hoping to save as many as would believe in him, and he was murdered for it at the hands of wicked men with wicked hearts who's father was the devil.

As I said, the parable of the wicked vine servants is about Jesus, just from that we can see it was wrong to kill him. And Paul clearly says in 2 Thessalonians that they pleased not God.

You say that I contradict myself, no, it's not me saying that they pleased not God, it's Paul. And so did Stephen when he said, they were betrayers and murders because they have slain our Lord Jesus. And there's more verses in the Bible showing that it was wrong to kill Jesus, it was a sin and God has nothing to do with sin.

Life saves, death doesn't save anyone.

God commanded the Jews to use the blood of animals to atone for their souls, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. As a penalty for sinning, the people had to bring a lamb for an offering for sin. That was a teaching tool about what Jesus would do for us. Jesus sacrificed his life for us. He came to suffer and die. God proves His love for us by Christ dying for us; we are justified by His blood. We are to have faith that Jesus’ blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing. Instead of bringing an animal to the temple to be sacrificed as a sin offering, we have to have faith that Jesus’ blood cleans us and we become the temple. That is how to be reconciled to God. His Spirit lives in us. When we die we go to be with Him, and will be raised at the resurrection of our bodies to live forever with Him on a new earth.

Jesus explained how he must suffer and die and Peter said never, and then Jesus rebuked him.

Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Leviticus 5:6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

 

[God's Truth]

It was the mystery that was hidden, the mystery that Jesus would die for us and take away the sins of the world. If the rulers of the age Jesus walked the earth would have grasped that Jesus would die for the sins of the world, they would have not let him be killed, they would have tried to stop it as workers for Satan.

God made the plan for Jesus to die for us, and He made that plan before He made the world.

God reconciles us to Him through Jesus, for those who love Him.


1 Corinthians 2

God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,

what no ear has heard,

and what no human mind has conceived” —

the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

 

[marhig]

Then by your belief Jesus died for nothing.

And when Jesus said it is finished, that meant nothing to you either.

etc etc.

When it says Jesus died for our sins it means just that.

Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

But you are twisting it to say Jesus died because we killed Him which was a sin.

Don't you want God to forgive your sins?. Do you want to go to Hell?

This is the KJV, and it's very similar in the Greek. Nothing there about Jesus dying on the cross to save us.

Romans 4:25

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

I know that Jesus had to bare whatever was set before him, in baring his cross and baring everything satan did to him, including crucifying him, Jesus was able to overcome satan and the world by never sinning and suffering it and bringing love and forgiveness in the place hatred and hardness. Bringing us about example to follow, showing us a new and living way. Satan couldn't touch him, he couldn't get him to sin, no matter what he did to him, and Jesus overcame everything by the power of God because he denied the flesh completely and lived by the will of God. So I know that Jesus had to go through everything that he did, but we are not saved by his death on the cross, nowhere in the Bible does it say this. We are saved through Christ Jesus, by the gospel which is the word of God, through faith by the grace of God. Jesus was saving before he went on the cross, he didn't need to die to save he saved when he was living.

Can I ask you, what did you think of the verse I posted from 2 Thessalonians, where Paul says that they pleased not God when they murdered Jesus? I have more verses to show why I believe as I do if you'd like me to show you?

Also why would God need the human sacrifice of himself to save us from his own wrath?

And, why do you think I'll go to hell if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross to save me, it doesn't say that anywhere on the Bible either, Jesus says that those who enter into the kingdom of heaven are those who love by the will of the father. Not by believing on the death on the cross. And God forgives us our sins as we repent, and forgive others.

 

[marhig]

God commanded the Jews to use the blood of animals to atone for their souls, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. As a penalty for sinning, the people had to bring a lamb for an offering for sin. That was a teaching tool about what Jesus would do for us. Jesus sacrificed his life for us. He came to suffer and die. God proves His love for us by Christ dying for us; we are justified by His blood. We are to have faith that Jesus’ blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing. Instead of bringing an animal to the temple to be sacrificed as a sin offering, we have to have faith that Jesus’ blood cleans us and we become the temple. That is how to be reconciled to God. His Spirit lives in us. When we die we go to be with Him, and will be raised at the resurrection of our bodies to live forever with Him on a new earth.

Jesus explained how he must suffer and die and Peter said never, and then Jesus rebuked him.

Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Leviticus 5:6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

As I said to Watchman, I have never said that Jesus didn't have to bare what he went through, but Jesus dying naturally on the cross isn't what saves us. We are saved through Christ, by the gospel (the word of God) by the grace of God through faith. I've explained more in the post above.

The life is in the blood, and the life is in the blood of Christ, and we need his life in us to live. We don't receive his life by believing that Jesus died on the cross to save us. We receive that life by repenting taking the word that Christ preached into our hearts obeying him and then living by the will of God until God blesses us with his Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

As I said to Watchman, I have never said that Jesus didn't have to bare what he went through, but Jesus dying naturally on the cross isn't what saves us. We are saved through Christ, by the gospel (the word of God) by the grace of God through faith. I've explained more in the post above.

The life is in the blood, and the life is in the blood of Christ, and we need his life in us to live. We don't receive his life by believing that Jesus died on the cross to save us. We receive that life by repenting taking the word that Christ preached into our hearts obeying him and then living by the will of God until God blesses us with his Spirit.

You are not speaking as one should. Remember what Jesus said to Peter?

 

[marhig]

It was the mystery that was hidden, the mystery that Jesus would die for us and take away the sins of the world. If the rulers of the age Jesus walked the earth would have grasped that Jesus would die for the sins of the world, they would have not let him be killed, they would have tried to stop it as workers for Satan.

God made the plan for Jesus to die for us, and He made that plan before He made the world.

God reconciles us to Him through Jesus, for those who love Him.


1 Corinthians 2

God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,

what no ear has heard,

and what no human mind has conceived” —

the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The mystery that was hid from them wasn't Jesus dying on the cross, the mystery was that Christ was among them and Christ in you, the hope and glory. And it's only manifest to God's people, not to those who wanted to kill him.

Colossians 1

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Peter had the mystery revealed to him, when Jesus asked and said who do you say that I am, and Peter replied that you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus then said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to Peter but his father which is in heaven. He was revealed the mystery by the father. That's the first revelation that we receive.

Even look at the verses you have quoted.

1 Corinthians 2

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, FOR IF THEY HAD, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY.

That means that if they had of known that Jesus was the Christ and that Christ is within and he is the hope and glory they would not have crucified him. Why would Paul say that, if the crucifixion saves everyone who believes? and why would Paul say in 2 Thessalonians that they killed Jesus and they pleased not God if the crucifixion saves us?

 

[marhig]

You are not speaking as one should. Remember what Jesus said to Peter?

Yes I know what Jesus said to Peter, and I know that Jesus had to suffer what he went through, including the cross, but we are not saved by his death, it even says in the Bible that we are reconciled to God by his word through Christ. It says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, by the ministry of reconcilation, by the word of God. No need for death to save, Jesus was saving in his lifetime, life saves, not death. We are saved by the grace of God through faith when we believe the truth and then we are to live by it and obey God and do his will and if we remain in his goodness and live by his will then we have the hope of eternal salvation, if we endure to the end and keep our faith.

I'm not going to go on though GT, as it just doesn't end and we will go back and forth for many posts, I know this is the truth, and I believe it. So I think it's better if I just leave it there. Thanks.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes I know what Jesus said to Peter, and I know that Jesus had to suffer what he went through, including the cross, but we are not saved by his death, it even says in the Bible that we are reconciled to God by his word through Christ. It says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, by the ministry of reconcilation, by the word of God. No need for death to save, Jesus was saving in his lifetime, life saves, not death. We are saved by the grace of God through faith when we believe the truth and then we are to live by it and obey God and do his will and if we remain in his goodness and live by his will then we have the hope of eternal salvation, if we endure to the end and keep our faith.

I'm not going to go on though GT, as it just doesn't end and we will go back and forth for many posts, I know this is the truth, and I believe it. So I think it's better if I just leave it there. Thanks.

I have already took the time to carefully explain it to you and you still reject the truth. So I do not see anymore reason to speak to you about it.

 

[God's Truth]

The mystery that was hid from them wasn't Jesus dying on the cross, the mystery was that Christ was among them and Christ in you, the hope and glory. And it's only manifest to God's people, not to those who wanted to kill him.

Colossians 1

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Peter had the mystery revealed to him, when Jesus asked and said who do you say that I am, and Peter replied that you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus then said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to Peter but his father which is in heaven. He was revealed the mystery by the father. That's the first revelation that we receive.

Even look at the verses you have quoted.

1 Corinthians 2

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, FOR IF THEY HAD, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY.

That means that if they had of known that Jesus was the Christ and that Christ is within and he is the hope and glory they would not have crucified him. Why would Paul say that, if the crucifixion saves everyone who believes? and why would Paul say in 2 Thessalonians that they killed Jesus and they pleased not God if the crucifixion saves us?

Jesus had to be 'sacrificed', killed, to be within us. He could not have just lived here and died naturally.

Paul says they wouldn't have killed Jesus if they had known. They wouldn't have killed him because they are evil and would try to stop him by NOT killing him.

It is bad for them that they killed Jesus, but it is good for us.

 

[marhig]

Jesus had to be 'sacrificed', killed, to be within us. He could not have just lived here and died naturally.

Paul says they wouldn't have killed Jesus if they had known. They wouldn't have killed him because they are evil and would try to stop him by NOT killing him.

It is bad for them that they killed Jesus, but it is good for us.

Just one last question, where does this what you have said?

Paul says they wouldn't have killed Jesus if they had known. They wouldn't have killed him because they are evil and would try to stop him by NOT killing him.

Fit in with this what Paul said?

1 Thessalonians 2

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: WHO BOTH KILLED OUR LORD JESUS , and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; AND THEY PLEASE NOT GOD , and are contrary to all men

 

[glorydaz]

No need for death to save,

:doh:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[marhig]

:doh:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What? That doesn't mean that at all, that means sinning brings forth death, in other words, if we carry on wilfully sinning we will be dead to God in the Spirit. God won't stay with wilful sinners no matter what you and some others here think.

Romans 6

Verse 16

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Then further down the chapter

Verses 20-23

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? FOR THE END OF THOSE THINGS IS DEATH.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

This is the KJV, and it's very similar in the Greek. Nothing there about Jesus dying on the cross to save us.

Romans 4:25

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

I know that Jesus had to bare whatever was set before him, in baring his cross and baring everything satan did to him, including crucifying him, Jesus was able to overcome satan and the world by never sinning and suffering it and bringing love and forgiveness in the place hatred and hardness. Bringing us about example to follow, showing us a new and living way. Satan couldn't touch him, he couldn't get him to sin, no matter what he did to him, and Jesus overcame everything by the power of God because he denied the flesh completely and lived by the will of God. So I know that Jesus had to go through everything that he did, but we are not saved by his death on the cross, nowhere in the Bible does it say this. We are saved through Christ Jesus, by the gospel which is the word of God, through faith by the grace of God. Jesus was saving before he went on the cross, he didn't need to die to save he saved when he was living.

Can I ask you, what did you think of the verse I posted from 2 Thessalonians, where Paul says that they pleased not God when they murdered Jesus? I have more verses to show why I believe as I do if you'd like me to show you?

Also why would God need the human sacrifice of himself to save us from his own wrath?

And, why do you think I'll go to hell if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross to save me, it doesn't say that anywhere on the Bible either, Jesus says that those who enter into the kingdom of heaven are those who love by the will of the father. Not by believing on the death on the cross. And God forgives us our sins as we repent, and forgive others.

Gospel means Good News and the Good News is Jesus died for our sins. You believe in another Gospel:

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Even the most righteous acts of the most righteous person is to God but rags with a woman's period on them.

John 10:8
All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

Jesus tell it like it is, even the most honoured of the Old testament 'holy' people are but thieves and robbers compared to Jesus.

Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

There is no comparison between man and God and Jesus is God. Without Jesus all are lost. You think you can worm your way into God presence by; 'repenting and forgive others.' Yet you are deceived because we all continually fail to do these things - daily!

 

[marhig]

Gospel means Good News and the Good News is Jesus died for our sins. You believe in another Gospel:

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Even the most righteous acts of the most righteous person is to God but rags with a woman's period on them.

John 10:8
All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

Jesus tell it like it is, even the most honoured of the Old testament 'holy' people are but thieves and robbers compared to Jesus.

Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

There is no comparison between man and God and Jesus is God. Without Jesus all are lost. You think you can worm your way into God presence by; 'repenting and forgive others.' Yet you are deceived because we all continually fail to do these things - daily!

Without repentance there is no remission of sins, we must repent. And if we don't forgive others then we are not forgiven according to Jesus and with God it's possible. When we believed, we were saved of our past sins, once we know God, we are to turn from wilful sinning and we won't fail, because he who is in those who belong to Christ is stronger than he who is in the world. With God all things are possible, and with God and through Christ Jesus we can overcome the works of the flesh. I have complete faith that God can do anything and I know that he is helping me to overcome my flesh daily.

And the gospel I believe in is the gospel of God, and it's one gospel preached by Christ and all his apostles, there is one God the father as taught in the Bible and one begotten son Christ Jesus who is under subjection to the father, and he does what the father tells him to do, the head of Christ is God.

God didn't need to come himself into a human body and be crucified by wicked men to appease his own wrath, that makes no sense. Jesus was a living sacrifice, and he laid down this fleshly life, and denied his own will to live by the will of God completely.

For a start Jesus was sent, so he was not God coming, but rather God sent him, and God was in him. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God through the gospel, the ministry of reconcilation. No need for death there. The only death God wants to see is death to self. Jesus was dead to self, and he was dead to the flesh because he didn't sin, and satan had no hold over him. And because he was dead to his flesh, we saw the fullness of God bodily through him, thus Jesus was in the express image of God. And through that death we are reconciled to God by the word of God, but we are saved by his life. As it says in the Bible.

The good news isn't that Jesus died naturally to save us, the good news is the gospel that Jesus preached and that is the gospel of salvation, the good news is that Jesus lived to save us baring witness to the truth and saving as many as would believe in him through the gospel.

Jesus said in john 18

To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

He also said in Matthew 7

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

He never said, you must believe that I died on the cross to save you, the cross Jesus died on was the cross that he bore as he died to self daily to live by the will of God and bring us the truth. No sin entered him, he was completely dead to this world.

Jesus nor his apostles preached that Jesus died on the cross to save us, and the cross Paul talks about is the cross Jesus bore, this is the cross that is foolishness to those that perish, because they don't want to take up their cross and follow Jesus, because they love their flesh and this world more than God. The cross is the same cross that Jesus tells us to take up daily to follow him, and if we are not willing to do so, then we are not worthy of him. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we will go to hell if we don't believe that Jesus was crucified to save us. But rather that we must live by the will of the father, and through Christ by the power of the Spirit we can overcome the world. We are saved through Christ, by the grace of God through faith, not by Jesus dying naturally on the cross, Jesus was murdered by wicked men who were doing the works of their father the devil, Jesus said it was their hour and the power of darkness. God has no dealings with darkness, satan crucified Jesus through wicked men but Jesus overcame by the power of God love. And even by satan putting him through all that suffering, Jesus still didn't sin once, instead he said father forgive them for they know not what they do. Why would God have to forgive them if what they were doing saved everyone?

I know that Jesus had to go through what he did, he had to bare the cup that was set before him, and in doing so Jesus overcame satan. Jesus's himself asked God to take away the cup from him but it was Gods will that he went through it because he had to overcome satan and this world of sin. God told through the prophets what would happen to Jesus, he foreknew what the devil would do to him, and Jesus was willing for it to bring the truth to us and save as many as he could by preaching the gospel of God.

You'll know those who belong to Christ by their fruits, they will have his life in them and they will have the heart of him. And the love of the father will be in their lives as they live by his will and they follow Christ Jesus.

 

[marhig]

John 7

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 8

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; BUT YOU SEEK TO KILL ME, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: AND YOU DO THAT WHICH YOU HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. BUT NOW YOU SEEK TO KILL ME, A MAN WHO HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. YE DO THE DEEDS OF YOUR FATHER. they said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, AND THE LUSTS OF YOUR FATHER YOU WILL DO.He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Acts 2

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 3

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, WHEN HE WAS DETERMINED TO LET HIM GO.

BUT YOU DENIED THE HOLY ONE AND THE JUST, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; AND KILLED THE PRINCE OF LIFE,whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 6

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; OF WHOM YOU HAVE NOW BEEN BETRAYERS AND MURDERERS.

1 Thessalonians 2

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men:

Revelation 11

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called SODOM AND EGYPT WHERE OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED

And again, the parable of the wicked husbandmen talks of Jesus, and God wanted them to reverence him and not murder him.

Anyway, it's a shame that you judge people's hearts on whether or not they believe Jesus died on the cross to save us. I believe that God judges the heart, and my brother's and sisters in God, are those who truly follow Jesus and live by the will of our father in heaven.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Without repentance there is no remission of sins, we must repent. And if we don't forgive others then we are not forgiven according to Jesus and with God it's possible. When we believed, we were saved of our past sins, once we know God, we are to turn from wilful sinning and we won't fail, because he who is in those who belong to Christ is stronger than he who is in the world. With God all things are possible, and with God and through Christ Jesus we can overcome the works of the flesh. I have complete faith that God can do anything and I know that he is helping me to overcome my flesh daily.

And the gospel I believe in is the gospel of God, and it's one gospel preached by Christ and all his apostles, there is one God the father as taught in the Bible and one begotten son Christ Jesus who is under subjection to the father, and he does what the father tells him to do, the head of Christ is God.

God didn't need to come himself into a human body and be crucified by wicked men to appease his own wrath, that makes no sense. Jesus was a living sacrifice, and he laid down this fleshly life, and denied his own will to live by the will of God completely.

For a start Jesus was sent, so he was not God coming, but rather God sent him, and God was in him. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God through the gospel, the ministry of reconcilation. No need for death there. The only death God wants to see is death to self. Jesus was dead to self, and he was dead to the flesh because he didn't sin, and satan had no hold over him. And because he was dead to his flesh, we saw the fullness of God bodily through him, thus Jesus was in the express image of God. And through that death we are reconciled to God by the word of God, but we are saved by his life. As it says in the Bible.

The good news isn't that Jesus died naturally to save us, the good news is the gospel that Jesus preached and that is the gospel of salvation, the good news is that Jesus lived to save us baring witness to the truth and saving as many as would believe in him through the gospel.

Jesus said in john 18

To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

He also said in Matthew 7

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

He never said, you must believe that I died on the cross to save you, the cross Jesus died on was the cross that he bore as he died to self daily to live by the will of God and bring us the truth. No sin entered him, he was completely dead to this world.

Jesus nor his apostles preached that Jesus died on the cross to save us, and the cross Paul talks about is the cross Jesus bore, this is the cross that is foolishness to those that perish, because they don't want to take up their cross and follow Jesus, because they love their flesh and this world more than God. The cross is the same cross that Jesus tells us to take up daily to follow him, and if we are not willing to do so, then we are not worthy of him. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we will go to hell if we don't believe that Jesus was crucified to save us. But rather that we must live by the will of the father, and through Christ by the power of the Spirit we can overcome the world. We are saved through Christ, by the grace of God through faith, not by Jesus dying naturally on the cross, Jesus was murdered by wicked men who were doing the works of their father the devil, Jesus said it was their hour and the power of darkness. God has no dealings with darkness, satan crucified Jesus through wicked men but Jesus overcame by the power of God love. And even by satan putting him through all that suffering, Jesus still didn't sin once, instead he said father forgive them for they know not what they do. Why would God have to forgive them if what they were doing saved everyone?

I know that Jesus had to go through what he did, he had to bare the cup that was set before him, and in doing so Jesus overcame satan. Jesus's himself asked God to take away the cup from him but it was Gods will that he went through it because he had to overcome satan and this world of sin. God told through the prophets what would happen to Jesus, he foreknew what the devil would do to him, and Jesus was willing for it to bring the truth to us and save as many as he could by preaching the gospel of God.

You'll know those who belong to Christ by their fruits, they will have his life in them and they will have the heart of him. And the love of the father will be in their lives as they live by his will and they follow Christ Jesus.

Horse before cart mate, otherwise you ain't going to make it.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ DIED for us.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the DEATH of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Until Jesus' death we were God's enemies.

In fact it wasn't until His disciples saw the resurrected Jesus did they finally really believe He was the way to eternal life BUT it took another 50 days before they received the Holy Spirit and became totally transformed born again Christians and started to preach the Good News. i.e. that Jesus death saved us.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "VERY TRULY I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

No one was saved before the Resurrection.

 

[marhig]

Horse before cart mate, otherwise you ain't going to make it.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ DIED for us.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the DEATH of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Until Jesus' death we were God's enemies.

In fact it wasn't until His disciples saw the resurrected Jesus did they finally really believe He was the way to eternal life BUT it took another 50 days before they received the Holy Spirit and became totally transformed born again Christians and started to preach the Good News. i.e. that Jesus death saved us.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "VERY TRULY I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

No one was saved before the Resurrection.

So if we are reconciled by his natural death, what was the point of God being in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by his word? By the ministry of reconciliation? And Jesus contradicts you, because he clearly told people whilst he was alive that their faith had saved them.

That is not the natural death in your post above, it's death to self. Jesus was dead to the flesh and then he lived by the will of God and God through him reconciled us by the gospel, it even says in that verse you have quoted that we are saved by his life!

Look at this, the following in John 21 is about dying to self and living by the will of God

John 21

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me

We don't die naturally to glorify God, we die to self to glorify him, once we are born of God, we are then covered by God in Christ and do things that we wouldn't do in the flesh, and in doing so we glorify God.

And this is about Jesus being dead to self

1 Peter 3

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

And we also die to self once we are quickened by the Spirit and risen with Christ.

Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

And yes we can't enter the kingdom of heaven unless we are born of water and spirit, we must be born anew, have the resurrection within, risen with Christ and those that are will live by the will of God. As said before you'll know them by their fruits.

Watchman, I know in my heart this is the truth, I know that God didn't need to come from heaven to be a human sacrifice to appease himself from his own wrath. Jesus was a living sacrifice. I have even shown verses that show us that our was wrong to crucify Jesus, Paul even saying that they pleased not God.

Anyway, there's no point in me saying anymore so it's best if I leave it there. I know this is the truth, I know that we are saved by the grace of God through faith, not through murder deceit, lies and the false witnessing that was used to put Jesus on the cross. Darkness crucified Jesus and there is no darkness whatsoever in God.

 

[meshak]

. As said before you'll know them by their fruits.

Yes, that's the core of Jesus' teachings.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So if we are reconciled by his natural death, what was the point of God being in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by his word? By the ministry of reconciliation? And Jesus contradicts you, because he clearly told people whilst he was alive that their faith had saved them.

That is not the natural death in your post above, it's death to self. Jesus was dead to the flesh and then he lived by the will of God and God through him reconciled us by the gospel, it even says in that verse you have quoted that we are saved by his life!

Look at this, the following in John 21 is about dying to self and living by the will of God

John 21

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me

We don't die naturally to glorify God, we die to self to glorify him, once we are born of God, we are then covered by God in Christ and do things that we wouldn't do in the flesh, and in doing so we glorify God.

And this is about Jesus being dead to self

1 Peter 3

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

And we also die to self once we are quickened by the Spirit and risen with Christ.

Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

And yes we can't enter the kingdom of heaven unless we are born of water and spirit, we must be born anew, have the resurrection within, risen with Christ and those that are will live by the will of God. As said before you'll know them by their fruits.

Watchman, I know in my heart this is the truth, I know that God didn't need to come from heaven to be a human sacrifice to appease himself from his own wrath. Jesus was a living sacrifice. I have even shown verses that show us that our was wrong to crucify Jesus, Paul even saying that they pleased not God.

Anyway, there's no point in me saying anymore so it's best if I leave it there. I know this is the truth, I know that we are saved by the grace of God through faith, not through murder deceit, lies and the false witnessing that was used to put Jesus on the cross. Darkness crucified Jesus and there is no darkness whatsoever in God.

Feelings are deceptive. If you want to be sure of your salvation you need to trust what Jesus taught and the disciples said about His death. No one was saved before this. Only God can judge us ultimately. Peace.