I said
That is not like you to turn to the cheap heckling. You seem to be changing some what.
Trinity Belief Is A Delusion
- Thread starter Squeaky
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I said
That is not like you to turn to the cheap heckling. You seem to be changing some what.
Thomas addresses Jesus Specifically.
Some claim that the language Thomas used was not an address to Jesus but rather a prayer or exclamation to God the Father. They say we can know this because John does not describe Thomas using the special Greek case for direct address called “the vocative case.”
In English this case is implied in the context of a sentence while in Greek you identify it through spelling. This case is what makes a simple recitation of a name like “Fred” different from speaking to someone, or saying “Fred!”
These critics claim that if John wanted us to think that Thomas made a direct address to Jesus then he would have used the vocative case. Since Thomas uses the more standard "nominative case" he must have simply been acknowledging God the Father and praising him for the Lord's return. He was not addressing Jesus with the titles "Lord" and "God."
Even if we set aside the fact that Thomas was probably speaking Aramaic and not Greek, this argument still fails because it is common in New Testament Greek grammar to address someone using the nominative case. In fact, in the entire New Testament there is only one verse (Matthew 27:46) where God is addressed using the vocative case (see Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 58). Everywhere else in the New Testament God is addressed using the same nominative case that is found in John 20:28.
For example, in Revelation 4:11 the twenty-four elders say to God the Father, “ho kurios kai ho theos hemon” or “our Lord and God.” Notice that the Greek words for “Lord” and “God” (kurios and theos) are the same words found in John 20:28 but no one would say the elders are not addressing the Father in this passage. This shows that the use of the nominative case does not prove a phrase is not a direct address to another person.
So just let Thomas mean what he said. That Jesus was and is His Lord and His God.
I said
Where do you come up with this stuff??? Thomas knew that God was in Christ. And Thomas was addressing both of them. And so that He wouldn't be rude by leaving one or the other un addressed. He addressed both of them. My Lord Jesus, and also my God the Father.
2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
Let us look at the gospel of John. Here at the end of chapter 12, this is towards the end of Jesus' public ministry. And this is before the private ministry to the disciples. And verse 39...
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
Now I'm sure you've read that before, but have you ever stopped and asked yourself the question.
"...Isaiah said because he saw his glory." In the context, it's only Jesus. So when did Isaiah see Jesus' glory? Well, we just had a quotation so where's the citation from? From Isaiah chapter 6. You know Isaiah chapter 6 I'm sure. It's about the prophets vision of God sitting upon His throne...
1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The [a]whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
5 Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
The quotation from Isaiah 6 is from verse 10...
10 Make the heart of this people “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”
So do you see what John is saying in John chapter 12? When he said, Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
If you asked Isaiah... "Isaiah? Who did you see in Isaiah chapter 6?" Isaiah's response would have been, YHWY. YHWY was sitting upon His throne lofty and lifted up.
But if you asked John, "Who did Isaiah see?" Johns answer, is Jesus. The one sitting upon the throne, is Jesus.
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
Now I'm sure you've read that before, but have you ever stopped and asked yourself the question.
"...Isaiah said because he saw his glory." In the context, it's only Jesus. So when did Isaiah see Jesus' glory? Well, we just had a quotation so where's the citation from? From Isaiah chapter 6. You know Isaiah chapter 6 I'm sure. It's about the prophets vision of God sitting upon His throne...
1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The [a]whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
5 Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
The quotation from Isaiah 6 is from verse 10...
10 Make the heart of this people “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”
So do you see what John is saying in John chapter 12? When he said, Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
If you asked Isaiah... "Isaiah? Who did you see in Isaiah chapter 6?" Isaiah's response would have been, YHWY. YHWY was sitting upon His throne lofty and lifted up.
But if you asked John, "Who did Isaiah see?" Johns answer, is Jesus. The one sitting upon the throne, is Jesus.
He was addressing Jesus. Nowhere does it signify he was also addressing Jesus and... You have to imply that with preconceived ideas onto the text instead of letting it speak for itself.
I was not addressing you Squeaks. This guy has been taking cheap shots and it is not appreciated. I don't normally take cheap shots but one gets out once in a while.
It wasn't addressed on thing; and it wasn't in vain. Stupid people think if Jesus wasn't God, such a statement would be. liars.Thomas to Jesus: "My LORD and My GOD."
Signed sealed and delivered my friends
He thinks of his lord first, and then his God. It would have been more likely, if he had my God and my Lord. Why wasn't he thinking of God first, if this is a proof text.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
That's because nobody has held his feet to the fire before.
He dont like it so he's squawkin'.
keypurr
Well-known member
Bright Raven here is something to ponder over
ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….
Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach. The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.
Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.
Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.
ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….
Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach. The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.
Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.
Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.
Dear me...
He was born. He lived, suffered, died. He capable of making mistakes. :idea:
And what mistake would that be?
I said
You have one wild imagination. A Lot of people try to mix the old testament in the new testament. The old testament is obsolete. And if you don't abide in the new testament you don't have the right God or the right Jesus.
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(NKJ)
II Jn 1:7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
(NKJ)
I said
Look again it doesn't say he was addressing Jesus only either. when I read it, it appears he was addressing both of them.
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
H
You have a very narrow minded view if scripture. His word will never pass away. I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill.
The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed. If you can't grasp that concept then I'm afraid for you as you will lead more then just yourself into a ditch
You have a very narrow minded view if scripture. His word will never pass away. I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill.
The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed. If you can't grasp that concept then I'm afraid for you as you will lead more then just yourself into a ditch
I said
I can give you all kinds of proof. Jesus said that we have the very same God and the very same Father that He does. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. Paul said there is only one God the Father.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
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