toldailytopic: Women preaching from the pulpit. Is it wrong?

Christ's Word

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Ah yes, men are doing such a great job leading churches, people are leaving the trinitarian churches in droves.

There are in our current day, so many people speaking the truth about God, I am sure God would condemn a woman for speaking the truth....not.
 

ThePresbyteers

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paulAndWomen.jpg


The typical arguments against the ordination of women are taken from an uncritical reading of a few New Testament texts. At 1 Tim 2:11-15, the author writes,


11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
This text is probably not authentically Pauline, but was written in his name late in the New Testament period. This was a time when the church was becoming an institution and was beginning to adopt some of the mores of the surrounding, patriarchal culture.

Even if it is authentic to Paul, it is worth noting that the author says “I permit no woman…” not “God permits no woman…” Compare this to 1 Cor 7:25 where Paul says, “Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.” In other words, Paul, by his own admission, did not always write the direct words of God, but sometimes gave his opinion.

Another New Testament text quoted against the ordination of women is 1 Cor 14:33b-36:

(As in all the churches of the saints, 34 women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?)

Put into its context, these verses are in a discussion of prophesy in the church. Some interpreters suggest that Paul was addressing a specific problem in Corinth. There were particular women, they say, who were being disruptive in worship.

To place this passage even more securely in its context, it is good to note that in 1 Cor 11: 1 ff, women are referred to as praying and prophesying without any censure for Paul, except that they are to keep their heads covered when doing so.

Some interpreters suggest that in 1 Cor 14:33b-36, Paul was quoting from a statement made by the Corinthians in their correspondence to him. The Corinthians are saying that women must be silent. Paul’s response is at verse 36,“Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?” Essentially this negates the idea that women must remain silent. Bolstering this interpretation, verses 33b-35 are inserted in different places in some (unreliable) manuscripts of the NT, separating them from the negation in v. 36. The suggestion here is that a scribe with a vested interest in keeping women silent might have intentionally moved vv. 33b-35.

Recognizing the context and the culture of passages like 1 Tim 2:11-15 and 1 Cor 14:33b-36 leaves the door open for the possibility of women in leadership roles in the NT, and therefore for the ordination of women in today’s Church.

There are also positive examples of women in leadership roles to be found in the NT. For example, in Acts 21:7, the daughters of Philip the Evangelist are said to have the gift of prophesy. Again, at Acts 18:26, Priscilla, along with her husband Aquila, is said to have instructed Apollos in the “way of God.” Though this is private instruction, it seems clear that Priscilla is in a position of authority, teaching a man.

The best evidence for women in leadership roles in the NT is found in Paul’s greetings to various individuals in Romans 16. Here he calls Phoebe a “deacon of the church at Cenchreae” (16:1). Again at verse 7, Paul refers to Junia as “prominent among the apostles.”

Those who oppose women’s ordination argue against these references in various ways which I find both circular and disingenuous. The arguments are disingenuous because, if Phoebe’s and Junia’s names were replaced with masculine names, no one would argue that they were not a deacon and an apostle, respectively. The arguments are circular because they proceed from the assumption that women could not be deacons and apostles therefore, Phoebe was a “servant” and not a “deacon.” (The Greek word “diakonos” means “servant” but was applied to an office of some authority in the early church). And, they argue, either Junia was actually a man or that she was not an apostle, but only “well known to the apostles.” Eldon Epp has written a small (160 pages), but exhaustively argued (half of the pages are devoted to notes!) book called Junia: The First Woman Apostle in which he puts paid to all such arguments. The book is scholarly and difficult, but should be required reading for anyone who would argue against Junia’s apostleship.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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paulAndWomen.jpg


The typical arguments against the ordination of women are taken from an uncritical reading of a few New Testament texts. At 1 Tim 2:11-15, the author writes,


11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
This text is probably not authentically Pauline, but was written in his name late in the New Testament period. This was a time when the church was becoming an institution and was beginning to adopt some of the mores of the surrounding, patriarchal culture.

Even if it is authentic to Paul, it is worth noting that the author says “I permit no woman…” not “God permits no woman…” Compare this to 1 Cor 7:25 where Paul says, “Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.” In other words, Paul, by his own admission, did not always write the direct words of God, but sometimes gave his opinion.

Another New Testament text quoted against the ordination of women is 1 Cor 14:33b-36:

(As in all the churches of the saints, 34 women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?)

Put into its context, these verses are in a discussion of prophesy in the church. Some interpreters suggest that Paul was addressing a specific problem in Corinth. There were particular women, they say, who were being disruptive in worship.

To place this passage even more securely in its context, it is good to note that in 1 Cor 11: 1 ff, women are referred to as praying and prophesying without any censure for Paul, except that they are to keep their heads covered when doing so.

Some interpreters suggest that in 1 Cor 14:33b-36, Paul was quoting from a statement made by the Corinthians in their correspondence to him. The Corinthians are saying that women must be silent. Paul’s response is at verse 36,“Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?” Essentially this negates the idea that women must remain silent. Bolstering this interpretation, verses 33b-35 are inserted in different places in some (unreliable) manuscripts of the NT, separating them from the negation in v. 36. The suggestion here is that a scribe with a vested interest in keeping women silent might have intentionally moved vv. 33b-35.

Recognizing the context and the culture of passages like 1 Tim 2:11-15 and 1 Cor 14:33b-36 leaves the door open for the possibility of women in leadership roles in the NT, and therefore for the ordination of women in today’s Church.

There are also positive examples of women in leadership roles to be found in the NT. For example, in Acts 21:7, the daughters of Philip the Evangelist are said to have the gift of prophesy. Again, at Acts 18:26, Priscilla, along with her husband Aquila, is said to have instructed Apollos in the “way of God.” Though this is private instruction, it seems clear that Priscilla is in a position of authority, teaching a man.

The best evidence for women in leadership roles in the NT is found in Paul’s greetings to various individuals in Romans 16. Here he calls Phoebe a “deacon of the church at Cenchreae” (16:1). Again at verse 7, Paul refers to Junia as “prominent among the apostles.”

Those who oppose women’s ordination argue against these references in various ways which I find both circular and disingenuous. The arguments are disingenuous because, if Phoebe’s and Junia’s names were replaced with masculine names, no one would argue that they were not a deacon and an apostle, respectively. The arguments are circular because they proceed from the assumption that women could not be deacons and apostles therefore, Phoebe was a “servant” and not a “deacon.” (The Greek word “diakonos” means “servant” but was applied to an office of some authority in the early church). And, they argue, either Junia was actually a man or that she was not an apostle, but only “well known to the apostles.” Eldon Epp has written a small (160 pages), but exhaustively argued (half of the pages are devoted to notes!) book called Junia: The First Woman Apostle in which he puts paid to all such arguments. The book is scholarly and difficult, but should be required reading for anyone who would argue against Junia’s apostleship.

When shall we expect you to copy/paste "War and Peace?" As well as, the entire works of William Shakespeare??
 

Psalmist

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.....for the women have gone, the China Inland Mission told Gladys Ayleward "you can't go" but she went anyway and God was with her. She was famous for conducting over a hundred children to safety over the mountains but before this she was traveling the remote mountain villages establishing christian assemblies where the gospel had never been heard. And these assemblies stood the test of the brutal Japanese invasion and the wicked oppression of the Commies...martyrs.

Nor was she the only lone woman missionary, there were Scandinavian woman working the remote China inland and Mongolia and Tibet. What of Amy Carmichael in India.

What would you say to Corrie and Betsy ten Boom? who established a christian assembly in Ravensbruch? many of those women who were slaughtered went to their deaths with the name of Jesus on their lips.
T/L may I add...Darlene Deibler Rose (1917-2004) who was a missionary in Papua New Guinea during World War II, As a newlywed, Darlene Deibler Rose served as a missionary in New Guinea from 1938 to 1942. Then, for three years, she was imprisoned by the Japanese during World War II and endured almost unspeakable hardships, solitary confinement, near starvation, beatings and loss of her husband, the Russell Deibler.

And there is Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944) was a missionary evangelist in China, and is the founder of the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Within the confines of a church structure, a woman is not to teach/preach over the men in the church. Women today don't remain silent before, during and after church services, that would be difficult to control. However, the main emphasis ought to be, that women not preach/teach over their male counterpart. (within the church structure) Women can teach children's Sunday school, run the nursery, preside over a ladies group. But their to remain silent when it comes to preaching within the church structure. Paul made this clear...
 

Angel4Truth

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Within the confines of a church structure, a woman is not to teach/preach over the men in the church. Women today don't remain silent before, during and after church services, that would be difficult to control. However, the main emphasis ought to be, that women not preach/teach over their male counterpart. (within the church structure) Women can teach children's Sunday school, run the nursery, preside over a ladies group. But their to remain silent when it comes to preaching within the church structure. Paul made this clear...

When the church began, it was not a particular building, so when Pricilla taught Apollos, she was doing so as the church.

The actual church is not a building made of bricks and mortar but a body of believers, and you can see an example of a woman teaching a man within it. So your argument is errant and ignores context yet again.

There is no male or female in Christ.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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When the church began, it was not a particular building, so when Pricilla taught Apollos, she was doing so as the church.

The actual church is not a building made of bricks and mortar but a body of believers, and you can see an example of a woman teaching a man within it. So your argument is errant and ignores context yet again.

There is no male or female in Christ.

You're just an angry feminist that doesn't want to be obedient to God's word the Holy Bible...Man was created first, God then saw it was not good for man to be alone, so He created woman from man. She was to be a "help meet" to the man. Paul also says she's to remain silent "within the church." There's a position for everything. Christ is under God, man is under Christ and the woman is under the man when it comes to a marriage unit. The woman is to honor her husband and the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the church. If you don't like the way God set things up, I doubt if you'll get to far arguing your point...
 

Angel4Truth

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You're just an angry feminist that doesn't want to be obedient to God's word the Holy Bible...Man was created first, God then saw it was not good for a man to be alone, so He created woman from man. She was to be a "help meet" to the man. Paul also says she's to remain silent "within the church." There's a position for everything. Christ is under God, man is under Christ and the woman is under the man when it comes to a marriage unit. The woman is to honor her husband and the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the church. If you don't like the way God set things up, I doubt if you'll get to far arguing your point...

Then are you saying Pricilla disobeyed and that verse is a picture of disobedient? And Paul contradicted himself when he shows that women could openly pray and prophecy (teach) 'within' the church?

The husband and wife thing deal with the home, not the church btw and all women are not under all men because of it, either.

To believe your take would mean we think Pricilla acted outside the church and Paul is doubleminded.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Then are you saying Pricilla disobeyed and that verse is a picture of disobedient? And Paul contradicted himself when he shows that women could openly pray and prophecy (teach) 'within' the church?

The husband and wife thing deal with the home, not the church btw and all women are not under all men because of it, either.

To believe your take would mean we think Pricilla acted outside the church and Paul is doubleminded.

Priscilla took Apollos "aside" there's no mention that she was "preaching/teaching "in the church," for that would not be allowed, due to the fact woman were to remain silent. So this encounter was not within the church assembly...

You're trying to be clever but it's not working for you...Prophecy carries the idea of foretelling the future before it comes to fruition...Thanks for trying, but you failed...
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Do you consider this to be a salvific issue or is it an issue of protocol handed down through history, a history dominated by the idea that man is in charge of all he surveys?
Don't understand the salvific aspect you see here. The matter of God's natural order of His creation is Biblical. This not some man-made tradition.

It might be said that the dominance of either partner in marriage, for instance, negates the idea of becoming one flesh? One flesh cannot be separated into dominance/submission.
I don't recall mentioning dominance. Please don't read that into anything I have written on the matter.

AMR
 

Angel4Truth

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Priscilla took Apollos "aside" there's no mention that she was "preaching/teaching "in the church," for that would not be allowed, due to the fact woman were to remain silent. So this encounter was not within the church assembly...


Hello out there??????? IN THE CHURCH - means in the body of Christ there, there were not 'church buildings' so yes she was 'in the church' meaning she was in the body of believers in Christ. She WAS in the church, when she taught Apollos.

Say it till you get it.

You're trying to be clever but it's not working for you...Prophecy carries the idea of foretelling the future before it comes to fruition...Thanks for trying, but you failed...

Youre trying to completely ignore historical context and its not working for you.

Second you need to look up the greek word that the word prophecy there comes from, then look up the meaning.

And even with your definition right you cannot prophecy even that way, if you CANT speak.

:duh:
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Hello out there??????? IN THE CHURCH - means in the body of Christ there, there were not 'church buildings' so yes she was 'in the church' meaning she was in the body of believers in Christ. She WAS in the church, when she taught Apollos.

Say it till you get it.



Youre trying to completely ignore historical context and its not working for you.

Second you need to look up the greek word that the word prophecy there comes from, then look up the meaning.

And even with your definition right you cannot prophecy even that way, if you CANT speak.

:duh:

You can try and twist and turn your "erroneous logic" all you wish, but you're still gonna come up wrong...
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Feminists don't like what Paul said, and will not abide with it because it plays against their ego... Sorry ladies, it is what it is and Godly women accept it. Only the liberal feminists have a problem with it...
 

Angel4Truth

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Feminists don't like what Paul said, and will not abide with it because it plays against their ego... Sorry ladies, it is what it is and Godly women accept it. Only the liberal feminists have a problem with it...

I like Paul just fine - he (like Christ), empowered women, for the first time, women were exposed to the scriptures, were able to hear them and learn them and many were made missionaries, pastors (like Priscilla) and deaconesses.

To hear you tell it -the empty tomb story is invalid too based on your logic, because the first witnesses were women, who according to the law then, were not valid witnesses.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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The Bible says, in Acts 18:26---"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, (they took him unto them,) and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." They spoke to him between the two of them, not before the assembly...
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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I like Paul just fine - he (like Christ), empowered women, for the first time, women were exposed to the scriptures, were able to hear them and learn them and many were made missionaries, pastors (like Priscilla) and deaconesses.

To hear you tell it -the empty tomb story is invalid too based on your logic, because the first witnesses were women, who according to the law then, were not valid witnesses.

You're being absurd. Witnesses are witnesses...Where doe it say "in Scripture" that women were not a valid witness? Chapter and verse?? Or is this from one of your secular accounts you like to put forth as truth??
 

Angel4Truth

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The Bible says, in Acts 18:26---"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, (they took him unto them,) and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." They spoke to him between the two of them, not before the assembly...

Show assemblies and church buildings in acts. Show that the church means building assemblies.
 
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