toldailytopic: Women preaching from the pulpit. Is it wrong?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

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We abide by the rule Paul set in Corinthians, we cover our heads when we preach and pray.

Can't imagine Paul in a pulpit.

I'm talking about, that women ought to keep silent...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

1 Corinthians 14:34 states; "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be submissive, as also says the law"

 

[Totton Linnet]

I am happy to answer these questions, but I have to ask if you have reviewed the links I have provided on several responses, e.g., Warfield, Dabney, cbmw.org, so that we are all on the same level as relates to the topic? There is no substitute for deeper study on this matter and quick and easy answers are just not going to suffice.

The reason for Paul's urging reconciliation between these women is that they have contended at his side in the cause of the gospel. By "contended" by Paul's side it means that they struggled along with Paul; they fought at his side (see BDAG for more). Paul uses the same verb in his challenge to all members of the church to stand firm in one Spirit, striving together with one accord for the faith of the gospel (Philippians 1:27). These women were famous for striving together at Paul's side in his gospel mission. They were not passive spectators; they were actively involved participants who struggled and suffered along with Paul to advance the gospel. All of which is to say, that nothing here supports some view that they were ordained servants, while it is clear that they were supporters of Paul's efforts, said support not contra-indicated by Scripture.

From this book, a good explanation of the four key elements of preaching are discussed, as they are described by four Greek words from the NT (kerusso, euangelizo, martureo, and didasko). The message is to be brought (euangelizo), declared exactly (kresusso), bears witness to the facts (martureo), and carries with it explanation in specific terms the meaning of the message as relates to the believer's life (didasko).

Preaching is prophesying on behalf of and in the name of Christ by the one given authority to do just that. The one so preaching is God's messenger and interpreter. In his charge to Timothy, Paul writes preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching (2 Timothy 4:2).

Missionaries are sent by the church to preach the Gospel of Christ. Galatians 2:7-9, "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." It is simply not the case that anyone with a hint of enthusiasm and some kind of skill is called a missionary. Christian worker, sure. Not missionary. Look at Acts 13:1-3. It was not just anyone that was sent off. Also look at the rest of Acts for examples of the duties of these men, too. They preached the gospel, planted churches, trained up elders, assisted in selection of elders, in their ordination, baptized, etc.

There is no prohibition of a woman sharing the good news or her opinions with another person in these sort of scenarios. This is not related at all to the matter of who should be standing in the pulpit or who should be exercising ecclesial authority over another.

kmoney, how about you lay out your view on the matter? Would like to know where you stand.

AMR

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You are slipped back into episcopalianism my dear brother, this is Ignatious writ large, that "we must obey the bishop as though he were the Person of Christ."

There is no scripture either NT or OT which enables the church to ordain the ministers of God. It is Christ alone who ordains, it is the Holy Ghost only who imparts gifts as He will.

Paul could appoint Timothy or Titus for He was mighty in the Holy Ghost...but what then? they appointed elders, Timothy passed on the apostolic teachings to faithful men, what then?

Goodness me the Papacy itself is derived from your doctrines.

The church's job is to wait upon the Lord and await the Holy Spirit....that is what is lacking. And He is able to appoint and enable and endue with power WHOSOEVER He pleases.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Totten---- I take it (by your silence) you don't disagree with Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:34??? Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be submissive, as also says the law

 

[Totton Linnet]

I'm talking about, that women ought to keep silent...

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I'm talking about if a woman prophesies or pray let her cover her head.

 

[Totton Linnet]

1 Corinthians 14:34 states; "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be submissive, as also says the law"

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You can play this merry game for a year, "let her cover her head, for it is shame for her to speak in church with uncovered head."

A man must NOT wear a hat.

What should be obvious is that neither Paul or the Holy Ghost contradicts themselves, therefore 1. Cor:14:34 must be refering to speaking apart from ministry.

The fact that Paul says "if she has any questions let her ask her husband at home" is a bit of a clue for if the men and women sat separately it would be awful wouldn't it if every so often when the Holy Spirit is ministering the word a voice shouted out to her husband accross the room.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

A man must NOT wear a hat.

Now they have pimp hats

 

[bybee]

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You can play this merry game for a year, "let her cover her head, for it is shame for her to speak in church with uncovered head."

A man must NOT wear a hat.

What should be obvious is that neither Paul or the Holy Ghost contradicts themselves, therefore 1. Cor:14:34 must be refering to speaking apart from ministry.

The fact that Paul says "if she has any questions let her ask her husband at home" is a bit of a clue for if the men and women sat separately it would be awful wouldn't it if every so often when the Holy Spirit is ministering the word a voice shouted out to her husband accross the room.

Do you suppose Paul was admonishing the "Holy Rollers" of his time?
Those person's moved by the Spirit to speak out?:chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

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I'm talking about if a woman prophesies or pray let her cover her head.

I assure you my young woman, I'm not out of line or off topic by adding that verse. After all the thread relates to women in the pulpit...And Paul says, that women ought to be silent in the church so obviously they cannot be in the pulpit at any rate!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

*
You can play this merry game for a year, "let her cover her head, for it is shame for her to speak in church with uncovered head."

A man must NOT wear a hat.

What should be obvious is that neither Paul or the Holy Ghost contradicts themselves, therefore 1. Cor:14:34 must be refering to speaking apart from ministry.

The fact that Paul says "if she has any questions let her ask her husband at home" is a bit of a clue for if the men and women sat separately it would be awful wouldn't it if every so often when the Holy Spirit is ministering the word a voice shouted out to her husband accross the room.

You're interpreting that teaching incorrectly in order for it to fit your agenda...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Now they have pimp hats



No need to be disrespectful nit-wit...

 

[Totton Linnet]

I assure you my young woman, I'm not out of line or off topic by adding that verse. After all the thread relates to women in the pulpit...And Paul says, that women ought to be silent in the church so obviously they cannot be in the pulpit at any rate!!

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Don't be STUPID.

I don't think they had pulpits, but Paul had made it perfectly plain that if women pray or prophesy they must cover their head....prophesy is to preach, whether you like it not.

Are you not man enough to sit under a woman's ministry? are you not spiritual enough to understand that if Christ speaks through a woman that the word is neither male or female but God's word?

It is time for the church [and women] to grow up and be spiritual.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I assure you my young woman, I'm not out of line or off topic by adding that verse. After all the thread relates to women in the pulpit...And Paul says, that women ought to be silent in the church so obviously they cannot be in the pulpit at any rate!!

*
This post seeths with patronising arrogance.

Sinners don't come to your churches anyway so what cares ?....I am interested in winning souls.

I fellowship with real men of God, spiritual men and gentlemen who put scripture above prejudices. They used to find scriptures to say that beautiful black people had no souls.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

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Don't be STUPID.

I don't think they had pulpits, but Paul had made it perfectly plain that if women pray or prophesy they must cover their head....prophesy is to preach, whether you like it not.

Are you not man enough to sit under a woman's ministry? are you not spiritual enough to understand that if Christ speaks through a woman that the word is neither male or female but God's word?

It is time for the church [and women] to grow up and be spiritual.

Do you realize young lady, that it takes 6 grown men to carry a man to his grave, But, only 1 woman to put him there??

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

*
This post seeths with patronising arrogance.

Sinners don't come to your churches anyway so what cares ?....I am interested in winning souls.

I fellowship with real men of God, spiritual men and gentlemen who put scripture above prejudices. They used to find scriptures to say that beautiful black people had no souls.

Well, all I can say is, Paul said women are to remain silent in church. If you wish to live in disobedience to the Bible, that's your choice...

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Are you not man enough to sit under a woman's ministry?

Man? I think we're talking to a teenager

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is what your argument has come down to.

You can't deny the scriptures.

 

[Christ's Word]

Men would rather hear lies from a man than truth from a woman. That explains both the success of the Trinity lie and the truth about the wide gate Christ spoke of.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Men would rather hear lies from a man than truth from a woman. That explains both the success of the Trinity lie and the truth about the wide gate Christ spoke of.

I see you're still crying out, "LIES!! and perhaps LIAR!! Did you, at any time in your life come in contact with anyone, you didn't end up calling a "liar?"

 

[kmoney]

Hi AMR, sorry for the late reply......

I am happy to answer these questions, but I have to ask if you have reviewed the links I have provided on several responses, e.g., Warfield, Dabney, cbmw.org, so that we are all on the same level as relates to the topic? There is no substitute for deeper study on this matter and quick and easy answers are just not going to suffice.

I have not read the links. You are on a higher level than me.

The reason for Paul's urging reconciliation between these women is that they have contended at his side in the cause of the gospel. By "contended" by Paul's side it means that they struggled along with Paul; they fought at his side (see BDAG for more). Paul uses the same verb in his challenge to all members of the church to stand firm in one Spirit, striving together with one accord for the faith of the gospel (Philippians 1:27). These women were famous for striving together at Paul's side in his gospel mission. They were not passive spectators; they were actively involved participants who struggled and suffered along with Paul to advance the gospel. All of which is to say, that nothing here supports some view that they were ordained servants, while it is clear that they were supporters of Paul's efforts, said support not contra-indicated by Scripture.

Thanks. :e4e:

From this book, a good explanation of the four key elements of preaching are discussed, as they are described by four Greek words from the NT (kerusso, euangelizo, martureo, and didasko). The message is to be brought (euangelizo), declared exactly (kresusso), bears witness to the facts (martureo), and carries with it explanation in specific terms the meaning of the message as relates to the believer's life (didasko).

Interesting. Thanks.

Preaching is prophesying on behalf of and in the name of Christ by the one given authority to do just that. The one so preaching is God's messenger and interpreter. In his charge to Timothy, Paul writes preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching (2 Timothy 4:2).

It's interesting that you use the term "prophesying" here. I have always seen preaching and prophecy as being different. What would you say prophesying is? And what do you think of passages like 1 Cor 14 in which Paul talks about prophesying and it seems that he intends all, men and women, to be able to prophesy, speak in tongues, and interpret?

Missionaries are sent by the church to preach the Gospel of Christ. Galatians 2:7-9, "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." It is simply not the case that anyone with a hint of enthusiasm and some kind of skill is called a missionary. Christian worker, sure. Not missionary. Look at Acts 13:1-3. It was not just anyone that was sent off. Also look at the rest of Acts for examples of the duties of these men, too. They preached the gospel, planted churches, trained up elders, assisted in selection of elders, in their ordination, baptized, etc.

I see. :think: Do you see any difference between apostleship and missionary work?

When you say "Christian worker", I assume you do not mean to include any preaching in that?

There is no prohibition of a woman sharing the good news or her opinions with another person in these sort of scenarios. This is not related at all to the matter of who should be standing in the pulpit or who should be exercising ecclesial authority over another.

Can you explain what you mean by ecclesial authority? Above, when explaining preaching, you mention bringing the word, declaring it exactly, bearing witness to the facts, and explaining the meaning. I don't see much in the way of authority.

kmoney, how about you lay out your view on the matter? Would like to know where you stand.

AMR

I think some passages that appear to prohibit women from speaking or preaching in church are partially due to cultural contexts that we don't fully understand. However, there are a couple other passages that seem to be more explicit in Paul's ban of women preaching and being elders in the church. And it is those latter passages that I have a hard time getting around in justifying women being pastors. However, as I noted in this thread, I am trying to separate the act of preaching from other duties that a pastor may have. It seems a little arbitrary to say that a woman can share the gospel and can talk about spiritual matters with a man outside of church but can't do the same thing inside a church.

I should mention that I have been occasionally attending a church that does have some women in the leadership and that do preach occasionally (an Episcopal church) and that I don't really have a problem with.


:e4e: