toldailytopic: Women preaching from the pulpit. Is it wrong?

Angel4Truth

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You're being absurd. Witnesses are witnesses...Where doe it say "in Scripture" that women were not a valid witness? Chapter and verse?? Or is this from one of your secular accounts you like to put forth as truth??

This is where you would have to study history and context. Scripture doesn't contain the laws of everywhere and everything under the sun.

Under Hebrew law then, the testimony of women was not considered legally valid.

Today many apologists use this FACT to state that the empty tomb story could not have been fabricated, because a fabrication would have men as witnesses because the testimony of women was not valid.

All you are doing is showing how ignorant you are of the scriptures.
 

Angel4Truth

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You're avoiding my question

Ive answered you, again show church buildings and assemblies as the definition of church in acts and tell me with scripture what church is, since according to you it means assembly in a building, instead of body of believers.

You avoided my question with that lie.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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This is where you would have to study history and context. Scripture doesn't contain the laws of everywhere and everything under the sun.

Under Hebrew law then, the testimony of women was not considered legally valid.

Today many apologists use this FACT to state that the empty tomb story could not have been fabricated, because a fabrication would have men as witnesses because the testimony of women was not valid.

All you are doing is showing how ignorant you are of the scriptures.

You my dear are the, "Princess of Ignorance" (no offence intended I assure you) You like to use references from history books (not inspired by God and written by mere men) but you don't even say where these, so called historical writings are found and their titles. You just expect people to take your word for it. You should try selling used cars you'd probably excel at it!!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Ive answered you, again show church buildings and assemblies as the definition of church in acts and tell me with scripture what church is, since according to you it means assembly in a building, instead of body of believers.

You avoided my question with that lie.

You're beginning to sound like, the old, "christsword" poster, who took every opportunity to call EVERYONE a liar. She's calmed down a bit, maybe they increased her dosage or something...

Once again, it doesn't matter if they held church in a building or an open field, Paul's ruling is still to be obeyed. Which you and your fellow cohorts are unwilling to obey and except!!...
 

Angel4Truth

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Be it in a luxurious building built by the hands of man or be it a field out in the open. The rule that Paul set up still must be obeyed...

Then you believe the church is a PLACE instead of being a body of believers.

Show me verses to support that please - i keep asking where in acts you can show this support and havent seen it yet... but i can show you where it shows believers as the church, instead of it being a place.
 

Angel4Truth

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You're beginning to sound like, the old, "christsword" poster, who took every opportunity to call EVERYONE a liar. She's calmed down a bit, maybe they increased her dosage or something...

Once again, it doesn't matter if they held church in a building or an open field, Paul's ruling is still to be obeyed. Which you and your fellow cohorts are unwilling to obey and except!!...

scripture evidence please, nothing else
 

Totton Linnet

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T/L may I add...Darlene Deibler Rose (1917-2004) who was a missionary in Papua New Guinea during World War II, As a newlywed, Darlene Deibler Rose served as a missionary in New Guinea from 1938 to 1942. Then, for three years, she was imprisoned by the Japanese during World War II and endured almost unspeakable hardships, solitary confinement, near starvation, beatings and loss of her husband, the Russell Deibler.

And there is Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944) was a missionary evangelist in China, and is the founder of the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.

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Aw America has given the church and the world some GREAT men and women of God. The people who seem to esteem them the least are the American church...[I think Jesus said something about that]

I have only seen bad stuff about A.S.McP but I noted that Smith Wigglesworth preached with her and that the 4square is a solid work.

God bless you. Marie Woodworth Etter also was an extraordinary person.
 

Totton Linnet

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Do you consider this to be a salvific issue or is it an issue of protocol handed down through history, a history dominated by the idea that man is in charge of all he surveys?
It might be said that the dominance of either partner in marriage, for instance, negates the idea of becoming one flesh? One flesh cannot be separated into dominance/submission.

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People have strange ideas, for example they will think that Christ meeting with the women first after He was arisen was a chance deal, a fluke of fate. It is true that the men were locked trembling behind in the upper room while the women were out doing the work but God planned it all. He wanted that the women should give the first resurrection message to the church......"oh Mary don't be so bossy, telling us to go to Galilee" It was a new order of things when Jesus rose from the dead.
 

Angel4Truth

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Christ chose twelve "men" to be His Apostles. Why do you think that was??

Because under Hebrew law, women weren't legally able to offer testimony. Jesus said Himself He came FIRST to the jew, to fulfill the scriptures.

“But let not the testimony of women be admitted, on account of the levity and boldness of their sex, nor let servants be admitted to give testimony on account of the ignobility of their soul; since it is probable that they may not speak truth, either out of hope of gain, or fear of punishment” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 4.8.15).

The Talmud

“Any evidence which a woman [gives] is not valid (to offer), also they are not valid to offer. This is equivalent to saying that one who is Rabbinically accounted a robber is qualified to give the same evidence as a woman” (Talmud, Rosh Hashannah 1.8).
“Sooner let the words of the Law be burnt than delivered to women” (Talmud, Sotah 19a).

Women were not allowed before Christ to even study and learn the scriptures at all according to Hebrew/Jewish law. Christ and Paul both empowered women, not the other way around.

Christ often even mocked the Hebrew Oral Law in the Talmud, because they were laws of men, not God.

You err, not fully knowing what you speak of.
 

kmoney

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God laid out the roles for men and women according to His own good counsel. We have no explicit teachings from Scripture as to "reason why" only that God God chose to create the world in a specific way, in a specific order, for specific reasons.

From Genesis we learn that man was created by God first, and given authority over all other creatures, including woman, created from Adam's flesh as a helper to him, and to whom she was brought, and named. Note from the Genesis account, that contrary to the popular view that women were made subject to men because of and after the Fall, the authority of man over women was part of God's natural order of the roles within His created order.

Clearly, before the Fall, Adam was head and authority over all creation and the woman. Recall also that God called this authority structure "good" before the Fall. After the Fall, the relationship between man and woman has become very strained, yet, woman remains even more subject to man.

AMR
:e4e:


Wrong for a woman on all accounts. Exhortation and administration of the sacraments is for the lawfully ordained, whose call has been verified, and who have been sent.

AMR
What do you mean by exhortation?

As for the sacraments, I was trying to separate other duties of a pastor, like administration of the sacraments, from simple preaching.

See these verses....
Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Would you say that the women who "laboured" with Paul in the gospel were servants like Phebe in Romans? Labouring in the gospel indicates to me some type of preaching or sharing the gospel. :idunno: Note, I'm not saying that it was a pastoral role in a church.

What is your take on women missionaries?
Or perhaps a woman is talking with a man (a non-Christian) outside of church and God and the gospel comes up. Are they allowed to share the gospel in that way? Or should they refer the man to another man?

Or, a man who is a fellow Christian asks a woman what she thinks about a particular theological question or how they interpret a particular passage of scripture?

These questions might sound picky and that I'm just trying to be difficult but I am genuinely interested in how you see all these different scenarios.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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God laid out the roles for men and women according to His own good counsel. We have no explicit teachings from Scripture as to "reason why" only that God God chose to create the world in a specific way, in a specific order, for specific reasons.

From Genesis we learn that man was created by God first, and given authority over all other creatures, including woman, created from Adam's flesh as a helper to him, and to whom she was brought, and named. Note from the Genesis account, that contrary to the popular view that women were made subject to men because of and after the Fall, the authority of man over women was part of God's natural order of the roles within His created order.

Clearly, before the Fall, Adam was head and authority over all creation and the woman. Recall also that God called this authority structure "good" before the Fall. After the Fall, the relationship between man and woman has become very strained, yet, woman remains even more subject to man.

AMR

Excellent post. My compliments!!!
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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What do you mean by exhortation?

As for the sacraments, I was trying to separate other duties of a pastor, like administration of the sacraments, from simple preaching.

See these verses....
Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Would you say that the women who "laboured" with Paul in the gospel were servants like Phebe in Romans? Labouring in the gospel indicates to me some type of preaching or sharing the gospel. Note, I'm not saying that it was a pastoral role in a church.

What is your take on women missionaries?
Or perhaps a woman is talking with a man (a non-Christian) outside of church and God and the gospel comes up. Are they allowed to share the gospel in that way? Or should they refer the man to another man?

Or, a man who is a fellow Christian asks a woman what she thinks about a particular theological question or how they interpret a particular passage of scripture?

These questions might sound picky and that I'm just trying to be difficult but I am genuinely interested in how you see all these different scenarios.
I am happy to answer these questions, but I have to ask if you have reviewed the links I have provided on several responses, e.g., Warfield, Dabney, cbmw.org, so that we are all on the same level as relates to the topic? There is no substitute for deeper study on this matter and quick and easy answers are just not going to suffice.

The reason for Paul's urging reconciliation between these women is that they have contended at his side in the cause of the gospel. By "contended" by Paul's side it means that they struggled along with Paul; they fought at his side (see BDAG for more). Paul uses the same verb in his challenge to all members of the church to stand firm in one Spirit, striving together with one accord for the faith of the gospel (Philippians 1:27). These women were famous for striving together at Paul's side in his gospel mission. They were not passive spectators; they were actively involved participants who struggled and suffered along with Paul to advance the gospel. All of which is to say, that nothing here supports some view that they were ordained servants, while it is clear that they were supporters of Paul's efforts, said support not contra-indicated by Scripture.

From this book, a good explanation of the four key elements of preaching are discussed, as they are described by four Greek words from the NT (kerusso, euangelizo, martureo, and didasko). The message is to be brought (euangelizo), declared exactly (kresusso), bears witness to the facts (martureo), and carries with it explanation in specific terms the meaning of the message as relates to the believer's life (didasko).

Preaching is prophesying on behalf of and in the name of Christ by the one given authority to do just that. The one so preaching is God's messenger and interpreter. In his charge to Timothy, Paul writes preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching (2 Timothy 4:2).

What is your take on women missionaries?
Missionaries are sent by the church to preach the Gospel of Christ. Galatians 2:7-9, "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." It is simply not the case that anyone with a hint of enthusiasm and some kind of skill is called a missionary. Christian worker, sure. Not missionary. Look at Acts 13:1-3. It was not just anyone that was sent off. Also look at the rest of Acts for examples of the duties of these men, too. They preached the gospel, planted churches, trained up elders, assisted in selection of elders, in their ordination, baptized, etc.

Or perhaps a woman is talking with a man (a non-Christian) outside of church and God and the gospel comes up. Are they allowed to share the gospel in that way? Or should they refer the man to another man?...Or, a man who is a fellow Christian asks a woman what she thinks about a particular theological question or how they interpret a particular passage of scripture?
There is no prohibition of a woman sharing the good news or her opinions with another person in these sort of scenarios. This is not related at all to the matter of who should be standing in the pulpit or who should be exercising ecclesial authority over another.

kmoney, how about you lay out your view on the matter? Would like to know where you stand.

AMR
 
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sky.

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1 Corinthians 11:7-9

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.


1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
 

Totton Linnet

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Christ chose twelve "men" to be His Apostles. Why do you think that was??

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We had a backslidden pastor trying that one on us [he was all but episcopalian in his beliefs] I said "but Judas dropped out....there were only 11"

He fell right into my trap.

"But then Mathias was chosen to make up the number to 12"

I replied "then Paul came along and there were 13" Paul calls Barnie an apostle, there were others.

It is true that the church is built upon the apostles and prophets, and I am sure that refers to the 12 for they had to be eyewitnesses which Paul never was. Paul does not overlook this truth in 1. Corinthians .15. he says that this doctrine was one of the gospel facts he had preached which they had believed in which they stood.

That Christ died for our sins according to scripture, that he was buried and on the third day He was raised from the dead according to the scripture and He was SEEN first of Cephas then of the twelve then of above 500 brethren at one time.

Nevertheless this does not limit [as I have shown you in the scripture] that apostleship is at all limited to 12.
 

Totton Linnet

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1 Corinthians 11:7-9

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.


1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

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Everyone beats up the women about wearing hats, the men do not wear hats.....oft times neither is Christ their head.
 
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