toldailytopic: Should Christians involve themselves in politics?

[Krsto]

Christians should stay out of politics/government as Christians have no earthly government. Our kingdom is that of heaven. That doesn't mean we can't let our voice be heard in public affairs - to the contrary we have an obligation as the salt of the earth to speak out for what is right and to bring people over to truth, love, and justice. However, to do so we must necessarily stay away from politics and politicians - a realm ruled not by reason or truth but by worldly power, rhetoric (in place of reason), and lies.

Paul didn't seem to think so. He used his Roman citizenship to his and (possibly) the Gospel's advantage. If God has ordained civil leaders don't you think he would want us to help get the best ones in the job? As George Washington put it, it is our duty to find the "wise and honorable" person to serve the people. We are not trying to set up our own Christian kingdom here on earth, we are just trying to live in peace, prosperity, and just civil rule.

 

[Ktoyou]

John 15:19 If you belonged to the world,

1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or anything in the world.............

We are not of the world, we have not earthly kingdom. Our kingdom is the kingdom of heaven.

No. We should have a voice amongst the public, not in the political system...............



You can be a public voice without being political...............

I disagree with you. Also poor exegesis due to taking parts of scripture out of context, to make your own point.

 

[Bradley D]

The Bible makes a point of obeying rulers and authority. Paul often used his Roman Citizenship to his advantage. I believe earthly citizenship requires a responsibilty of Christians to be good citizens. I believe that particpating in the voting process is a sign of being a good citizen. However, I must admit I'm not impressed with most politicians and view most governments as a necessary evil. I also believe I do not have the right to complain about them if I don't vote.

 

[Buzzword]

I also believe I do not have the right to complain about them if I don't vote.

Just because you had to word it that way...

"I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with."
-George Carlin

 

[csuguy]

Paul didn't seem to think so. He used his Roman citizenship to his and (possibly) the Gospel's advantage.

Paul wasn't a politician nor did he tell people how to vote. He wasn't concerned with the political scene save to tell us to respect the government we find ourselves under. Paul didn't want Christians trying to revolutionize the government, he didn't want us to be rebels. Rather, he wanted us to try to fit in as much as possible with the society that we find ourselves in.

If God has ordained civil leaders don't you think he would want us to help get the best ones in the job? As George Washington put it, it is our duty to find the "wise and honorable" person to serve the people. We are not trying to set up our own Christian kingdom here on earth, we are just trying to live in peace, prosperity, and just civil rule.

If God has ordained the civil leaders then your vote is moot.

 

[csuguy]

I disagree with you. Also poor exegesis due to taking parts of scripture out of context, to make your own point.

What scripture was taken out of context?

 

[Krsto]

Paul wasn't a politician nor did he tell people how to vote. He wasn't concerned with the political scene save to tell us to respect the government we find ourselves under. Paul didn't want Christians trying to revolutionize the government, he didn't want us to be rebels. Rather, he wanted us to try to fit in as much as possible with the society that we find ourselves in.

If God has ordained the civil leaders then your vote is moot.

I don't think that means God ordained any particular person to be in office or Christians could never resist despots like Hitler and Pol Pot. I take that to mean he ordained the office as a means to ensure a just society (at least compared to anarchy) and when you resist the one who is trying to bring peace and order then you are resisting God. It's our job to find people for those positions that will actually rule with justice because God is all for peace and justice. We aren't trying to revolutionize the government, just help it to function as God intended. He asked us to pray for them, do you think he might actually care about who runs a country? :doh: Does he pick and choose the people? No, that's our job.

You don't find Jesus or Paul advocating political involvement because there was no venue for Christians. There wasn't really anything they could do about it but pray. But that was then, this is now. We do have a venue and we would be remiss in squandering our opportunity to not only shepherd our churches but be a part of shepherding our civil society as individuals who have a heart for the government doing the right thing.

I don't think pastors should tell people how to vote but they should encourage them to be better informed and give reasons why they think one candidate is better than the other and then leave it up to the people to make up their own minds, just like they do with theological topics.

 

[csuguy]

I don't think that means God ordained any particular person to be in office or Christians could never resist despots like Hitler and Pol Pot.

God has handed the world over to Satan; what makes you think he didn't ordain Hitler and Pol Pot? Don't forget, God allowed Babylon and the Assyrians to conquer the Jews way back when. God sometimes allows evil to go unchecked for a period so that we may experience it and repent. And as we draw nearer to the end times, we can expect the world to became more and more evil.

Further, Hitler got into power because of all those "Christians" and others voting him into power. Hitler, of himself, was quite powerless. He only had power in that he was able to infect the German people with a mad philosophy. What was needed to prevent the holocaust wasn't a civil war in Germany, but true Christianity to be preached to the people to make them see the evil of their ways.

Christians can fight a corrupt ruler, but not through war; they must do so through preaching the truth and by winning the souls of the people he rules.

I take that to mean he ordained the office as a means to ensure a just society (at least compared to anarchy) and when you resist the one who is trying to bring peace and order then you are resisting God.

This is true. However, it goes beyond that. Paul taught in many different ways that we are not to be rebels, we are not to stir up unnecessary trouble. Our job is not to shape society from the top-down, but from the bottom-up. Our job is to focus on the individuals within a society and on transforming them regardless of the government in power, regardless of the customs there. AS much as possible we are to seek to fit in.

It's our job to find people for those positions that will actually rule with justice because God is all for peace and justice.

What about in non-democratic/non-republic systems of government like a monarchy? Is it your job then?

Even in a democracy/republic, why is it our job? Don't you know all politicians are corrupt, none of them is inline with God. After all, in a democracy/republic, the one elected is the one inline with the people. If the people are in opposition to God, then your individual vote for the one "good" politician means nothing. Once again we return to the fact that we must focus on the individuals of society rather than trying to deal with heads of society.

We aren't trying to revolutionize the government, just help it to function as God intended. He asked us to pray for them, do you think he might actually care about who runs a country? :doh:

If you are trying to transform it into a Christian nation, you are trying to revolutionize it. For there are no nations which just *happen* to be in line with Christianity; especially the historical "Christian" ones.

We have been given our duty as Christians: to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, defend the weak, etc. And spread the Gospel, making disciples. It is not our job to transform the government.

A merger between Christianity and government has been tried, historically, on many occasions - and each has failed miserably.

Does he pick and choose the people? No, that's our job.

Paul indicates otherwise. Again: what about non-democratic/republic systems of government, does he choose them then?

You don't find Jesus or Paul advocating political involvement because there was no venue for Christians.

Paul was a Roman Citizen, as were many of those he was evangelizing. He could have voted and he could have advised those who could vote to do so in a manner that reflected Christian values. He didn't - because changing the government wasn't his concern.

There wasn't really anything they could do about it but pray.

He could have done more; but the government isn't our duty. That is why all he did was pray, he left it to God.

But that was then, this is now. We do have a venue and we would be remiss in squandering our opportunity to not only shepherd our churches but be a part of shepherding our civil society as individuals who have a heart for the government doing the right thing.

Forcing Christians morals through law isn't shepherding society. Puritans tried that one with the prohibition; this resulted in empowering and enriching petty criminals and organizing them into large powerful gangs. Voting for Christian-esque laws doesn't shephered the individual, who is our focus, it only creates tensions between the Christian voters and those who disagree with the Christian views.

I don't think pastors should tell people how to vote but they should encourage them to be better informed and give reasons why they think one candidate is better than the other and then leave it up to the people to make up their own minds, just like they do with theological topics.

Rather than wasting one's time studying politics, economics, etc. A Christians time is better served studying theology and putting it to practice. There is only so much time in a day, we must prioritize our efforts.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hi,

Both Joseph and Daniel were in civil government, but it depends on what sort of government we have, because today, to be voted in we must toe the party line and do as the party says, besides turning a blind eye to some corruption in not rocking the boat and making ourselves unpopular.

Despite what so many think, our present systems of government are not something that a Christian can serve the community very well in.

We are called to being Priests and Prophets of a Higher Kingdom than mans, and our duty is to warn men/rulers against their continuation of sin, and teach righteousness to those who take heed. Others use more motherly methods of persuasion depending on ones giftedness.

One can be a Christian and be in government if that is where God has called them to, but it would have to be Gods appointment imo.

LA

 

[chrysostom]

We are not of the world, we have not earthly kingdom. Our kingdom is the kingdom of heaven..

speak for yourself

I agree that you are not of this world
but
you might consider joining it
and
get your hands dirty

 

[kmoney]

Christians should stay out of politics/government as Christians have no earthly government. Our kingdom is that of heaven. That doesn't mean we can't let our voice be heard in public affairs - to the contrary we have an obligation as the salt of the earth to speak out for what is right and to bring people over to truth, love, and justice. However, to do so we must necessarily stay away from politics and politicians - a realm ruled not by reason or truth but by worldly power, rhetoric (in place of reason), and lies.

How should Christians make their voices heard in the public sphere?

Are you saying that Christians shouldn't vote?

 

[kmoney]

Have you ever been HAPPY following or participating in politics?

A brief perusal of the Politics section of TOL shows a whole bunch of people angry for one thing or another, but none able to CHANGE what angers them.

Why bother getting angry about that over which you have zero control?

If I'm going to use the energy required to be angry, it's going to be at something I'll eventually STOP being angry about, either because I've fixed the problem or I'm tired and am going to bed.

Given the state of our political system and the powers that be, I don't think my vote really does much. But I can't take a completely defeatist attitude and just give up. I will continue to vote and I really think I should be doing more. The more people think they can't exact any change the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think I'd rather try in vain than not try at all.

 

[chrysostom]

Given the state of our political system and the powers that be, I don't think my vote really does much. But I can't take a completely defeatist attitude and just give up. I will continue to vote and I really think I should be doing more. The more people think they can't exact any change the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think I'd rather try in vain than not try at all.

well said

it is hard to understand the current attitude here about politics
but
it is consistent with their views on works

 

[Buzzword]

Given the state of our political system and the powers that be, I don't think my vote really does much. But I can't take a completely defeatist attitude and just give up. I will continue to vote and I really think I should be doing more. The more people think they can't exact any change the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think I'd rather try in vain than not try at all.

You didn't answer my initial question.

Have you ever been happy while following or participating in politics?

I've occupied space from one end of the American political spectrum to the other, and never in all that time could I look at the state or federal government and say "It's just like I want it. I hope we can keep this up for awhile."

The more stressful my life gets, the more I seek contentment and peace.
Thus I slough off things which cause stress without giving any reward.

My job causes stress, but I need money.
School causes stress, but I want a degree.

Politics causes stress, and more stress, and overstress, and breaks up friendships and causes tension among family members and church members, yet never provides any benefit to enduring the heightened blood pressure and wasted time.

Thus I just let it go by, and get back to spending time with my wife, God, and my friends and family, and my art.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

No. Christians should not take part in any sort of organized crime.

So true Newman; Christians should not vote Libertarian or for any of their candidates (Ron Paul).

 

[kmoney]

You didn't answer my initial question.

Have you ever been happy while following or participating in politics?

Happy in what way? Happy as in the act of voting or getting involved is fun or happy as in I'm happy with the state of our government?

I've occupied space from one end of the American political spectrum to the other, and never in all that time could I look at the state or federal government and say "It's just like I want it. I hope we can keep this up for awhile."

Having it "just like I want it" is impossible. Don't set the bar so high.

The more stressful my life gets, the more I seek contentment and peace.
Thus I slough off things which cause stress without giving any reward.

My job causes stress, but I need money.
School causes stress, but I want a degree.

Politics causes stress, and more stress, and overstress, and breaks up friendships and causes tension among family members and church members, yet never provides any benefit to enduring the heightened blood pressure and wasted time.

Thus I just let it go by, and get back to spending time with my wife, God, and my friends and family, and my art.

I don't think politics causes me stress. I'm certainly not happy with a large number of things, both in our country and the world, but I wouldn't say it stresses me out. I don't lose sleep. I don't have high blood pressure. If you were getting overly stressed out because of politics then maybe that is just something you need to work on.

Again, I can't take the defeatist attitude you have. :idunno: If everybody just gave up then nothing would get done and nothing would change.

 

[annabenedetti]

I like what P. Andrew Sandlin said in "Christianity: Mother of Political Liberty"

Whither the West?

Today the West languishes under the violence of abortion and euthanasia, the scourge of homosexuality, the poverty of materialism, the coercion of socialism, the stranglehold of "public" education, the chaos of judicial activism, and the injustice of a forced racism and sexism. These tyrannies are all the direct result of the abandonment of Biblical Christianity. The Western world has increasingly accepted the proposal of that first modern political liberal, Jean Jacque Rousseau: the state will emancipate you from responsibility to all non-coercive human institutions like the family, church, and business, if only you submit yourself to the coercion of the state. Modern man has been willing to trade away responsibility to the family and church and business for subjugation to an increasingly coercive and violent political order. We are returning to the classical, pagan world in which the coercive state is the unifying principle for all of life.

The most vicious, violent, and murderous political regimes in the history of mankind have been non- or anti-Christian: the primitive pagan humanism of ancient Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, and the sophisticated secular humanism of revolutionary France, the Soviet Union, Red China, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and other modern secular states. Humanism is and always has been a recipe for political terror and tyranny.

The only hope for the return of political liberty and the free society it fosters is a return to orthodox, Biblical Christianity. Christianity is not merely a matrix in which political freedom flourishes; it is the only foundation on which to build a free society.

I don't share the same theological beliefs as P. Andrew Sandlin, (at least those differences which make him Reformed and me Catholic), but I thoroughly agree with what he stated above. :up:

A great voice on the theme:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/harvard1978.html

 

[Buzzword]

Happy in what way? Happy as in the act of voting or getting involved is fun or happy as in I'm happy with the state of our government?

Happy with LIFE, while watching and trying to steer the people and the government in one way or another.

Having it "just like I want it" is impossible. Don't set the bar so high.

Why not?
There are so many things in my life which I CAN set the bar at "just like I want it," and actually GET it.

If politics isn't one of them, then why waste the time and effort on it?

I don't think politics causes me stress. I'm certainly not happy with a large number of things, both in our country and the world, but I wouldn't say it stresses me out. I don't lose sleep. I don't have high blood pressure. If you were getting overly stressed out because of politics then maybe that is just something you need to work on.

I grew up watching my parents follow and be active in politics, and all I ever saw were red-faced rants and raves about how this or that group is "destroying America," and how we're somehow "in the End Times" just because Clinton was elected president.

My dad had multiple strokes, my mom had breast cancer.
They both recovered, and re-prioritized their lives.

They decided to focus their energies in more productive areas (God, grandkids, my dad's business, etc.) and thus have since been able to live content and happy.

Again, I can't take the defeatist attitude you have. :idunno: If everybody just gave up then nothing would get done and nothing would change.

It isn't defeatist to acknowledge the reality that the only way things can change is for the people who have profited from the screwed-up current state of things to decide they can profit more from changing the system and doing something new.

That has been the impetus behind every great social shift in human history.

I'm not in control of what the government (at any level) does.
I AM in control of how I respond to and interact with the people around me.
So instead of picketing or writing massive essays condemning the evils of whichever party as I did in my earlier youth, I focus on sharing Christ with individuals in my circle and endeavoring to always act out of love.

That effort is the polar opposite of political activism, and thus has had a remarkably positive impact on my life and my marriage.

 

[kmoney]

Happy with LIFE, while watching and trying to steer the people and the government in one way or another.

Sure. Again, I'm not happy with a lot that happens but it doesn't affect my mood on a daily or constant basis.

Why not?
There are so many things in my life which I CAN set the bar at "just like I want it," and actually GET it.

If you are only happy if things are exactly how you want it then you probably won't be very happy in life. There is very little that you can control to that extent.

If politics isn't one of them, then why waste the time and effort on it?

Because it shouldn't be an all or nothing thing.

I grew up watching my parents follow and be active in politics, and all I ever saw were red-faced rants and raves about how this or that group is "destroying America," and how we're somehow "in the End Times" just because Clinton was elected president.

My dad had multiple strokes, my mom had breast cancer.
They both recovered, and re-prioritized their lives.

They decided to focus their energies in more productive areas (God, grandkids, my dad's business, etc.) and thus have since been able to live content and happy.

I'm glad they are doing well now and I'm sorry they went through those health problems, but many people can be involved in politics and don't suffer such health problems and don't let it control their lives.

It isn't defeatist to acknowledge the reality that the only way things can change is for the people who have profited from the screwed-up current state of things to decide they can profit more from changing the system and doing something new.

That has been the impetus behind every great social shift in human history.

I'm not in control of what the government (at any level) does.
I AM in control of how I respond to and interact with the people around me.
So instead of picketing or writing massive essays condemning the evils of whichever party as I did in my earlier youth, I focus on sharing Christ with individuals in my circle and endeavoring to always act out of love.

I'm not really sure what to say that isn't repeating myself. :idunno:

I'm not calling you a defeatist because you acknowledge that your vote doesn't change much. That is just being a realist. I think the extra step you take is what makes you a defeatist.

That effort is the polar opposite of political activism, and thus has had a remarkably positive impact on my life and my marriage.

I'm glad you are happy.

:e4e:

 

[Ps82]

Only godless liberals would try to get us to think that we shouldn't... and I stress godless ... 'cause hopefully not all liberals are godless. It's sort of like saying radical Muslims instead of all Muslims.