toldailytopic: Should Christians involve themselves in politics?

[Frank Ernest]

False dichotomy.

I'm involved in my community through my church, my school, my job, and various service organizations.

NONE of them require political activism aka surrendering to the corrupt system.

Which is a false dichotomy.

 

[BabyChristian]

Paul wasn't a politician nor did he tell people how to vote. He wasn't concerned with the political scene save to tell us to respect the government we find ourselves under. Paul didn't want Christians trying to revolutionize the government, he didn't want us to be rebels. Rather, he wanted us to try to fit in as much as possible with the society that we find ourselves in.

:dead:

Yes we should enjoy the way our country is being ruined with sin?

No one said Paul was a politician. Where did you get that idea that someone typed that? He still had his opinions, everyone has them and why should Christians be silent?

If God has ordained the civil leaders then your vote is moot.

In the O.T. during the time of the Judges they were ordained and certain others were ordained.. We don't live in those days and now we vote for the people that are messing up this country as Obama is so ridiculously doing.

We are to have opinions of right and wrong and try to right the wrongs by being political.

We are in this world for a while whether we like it or not.

Since you claim to be a Pinko Commie you're more than welcome to live an apolitical life.

22 years of age? No wonder. I keep saying this age thing because you haven't got a clue.

 

[Buzzword]

Which is a false dichotomy.

How so?

Are any of the methods of community involvement I mentioned related to politics?

 

[Cracked]

The world view informs the whole person--every action taken is governed, normally, to a certain extent by what one believes. Thus, you cannot separate religion from politics.

However, when you ask if Christians should involved themselves in politics what comes to mind is a similar question: should Christians seek power? I do not think so.

In fact, it seems to me that the best leaders are the ones who do not want power to begin with, were constantly aware of its corrupting influence, or at least have lived at the bottom for a time before they receive it. Cyrus the Great, for example, or even someone like George Washington. Not everyone is corrupted by power (e.g., Joseph), but look at even David and especially Solomon.

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, 'Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?'"

"He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: 'Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

Humility and servant leadership--this is what truly changes the world, one heart at a time.

 

[HisServant]

Yes.. with our vote, but we should take the early churches example of barring church members from holding political office.

 

[Krsto]

Yes.. with our vote, but we should take the early churches example of barring church members from holding political office.

So we can participate in choosing our own leaders but we must not be one of those leaders. We must choose between the lesser of two evils in all levels of government from city hall to the White House. We can choose people to represent us but they must not be like us in having the same faith, world view, and moral standards.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Krsto]

The world view informs the whole person--every action taken is governed, normally, to a certain extent by what one believes. Thus, you cannot separate religion from politics.

However, when you ask if Christians should involved themselves in politics what comes to mind is a similar question: should Christians seek power? I do not think so.

In fact, it seems to me that the best leaders are the ones who do not want power to begin with, were constantly aware of its corrupting influence, or at least have lived at the bottom for a time before they receive it. Cyrus the Great, for example, or even someone like George Washington. Not everyone is corrupted by power (e.g., Joseph), but look at even David and especially Solomon.

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, 'Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?'"

"He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: 'Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

Humility and servant leadership--this is what truly changes the world, one heart at a time.

Wouldn't a humble servant/leader make the best legislators too?

 

[Krsto]

How so?

Are any of the methods of community involvement I mentioned related to politics?

The kingdom of heaven is like the woman who puts the leaven of the Gospel and all that Jesus taught into the lump of the world until the whole lump was leavened. That is a picture of total infiltration and transformation of all of society at all levels. No part of that lump of dough is to be excluded and left to the devil.

If you are not on that program you are not on God's program. Brethren, come join our Lord in this great work of increasing the our Lord's government.

I'm not talking statism here, btw.

 

[Frank Ernest]

How so?

Are any of the methods of community involvement I mentioned related to politics?

The false dichotomy is:

NONE of them require political activism aka surrendering to the corrupt system.

Systems are corrupt only to the extent the people within them are corrupt. One does not inherit corruption by adhering to a system. Otherwise one could certainly refer to churches as corrupt systems since they involve politics to some degree or other.

 

[kmoney]

I mean just that: go into the public and share the gospel. There are many ways of doing it, the point is to get out there and spread the gospel. Ultimately it is best done with individuals or small groups, but you must go to the people to meet the individuals. By getting known publicly, you get people curious; and then you can sit down with them privately.

And indeed, the distinction between public and private in this context is a bit artificial. The public is merely the collection of private individuals. If you influence the individuals you influence the entire public sphere.

Then of course there are ministries where you actively go out into the community and help those in need. Go buy lunch for that man on the street and sit down with him and talk about his life, get to know him. Go with a small church group and pray with prisoners. Get out into the community; if you are active in the community you will be known publicly.

I do see what point you are making and I agree to some extent but I think if the line gets blurred too much it can cause confusion.

Politics is all about convincing the masses to vote a certain way or feel a certain way towards a leader or government action; and the mass is foolish and without reason. Tell them what they want to hear and you will win, tell them what they don't and you'll be called terrorist, communist, etc. The reason politics is fundamentally rhetorical and corrupt is because its audience is fundamentally foolish and emotional vs logical. Politicians known for a long time how to influence and take advantage of the populace; and it isn't through reasoning with them.

You are simply speaking about what our current system is, not what it must be. And being involved in politics doesn't mean you have to fall for all the rhetoric.

As for your second comment: it is not a matter of who gets voted in. Once the Church is tied to the state bad things happen; theology is influenced by state interests, "heretics" are killed or banished with the power of the state based upon who the ruling churches leaders say are "heretics," and "Holy" Wars are waged against the "heathens" to whom we must use the power of the state to forcibly convert. Not to say it starts off like this, but inevitably the mixture goes awry.

What do you mean by the Church being tied to the state? I don't think we're anywhere near the things you mention. Not anymore anyway.

Yes, they do. They say giving the poor money is evil because you are "enabling them." They have pre-judged the poor as lazy drunks and druggies who should disappear rather than "steal" tax-payer money.

Well, some might. I wouldn't paint with too broad of a brush with that. Again, I think most of it comes down to how the aid is given out. Government organizations with poor oversight do make it easier to abuse the system which is why many Christians prefer the help to be given through private or religious organizations that are closer to the community.

Of course, if you want to play semantics then of course you could exclude these individuals from those you call Christian; not that it wouldn't be warranted.

I think it is dishonest to define "Christian" as someone who has the behavior and beliefs you think are right. So no, I don't want to play semantics.

Voting and expressing your political views is an act, a public act. Or do you think you should vote but keep your political views private? I would imagine, if you are concerned about politics, that you would want to debate politics and convince others of the position you think is best so that there is a better chance of it getting voted for.

You can't really vote and keep views private so no I'm not suggesting that. And I don't debate politics much. Mostly on TOL or with friends and family. It's not really a work appropriate thing and I'm not in school anymore.

Naturally, politics (much in the same way as you know theology can) enrages many, if you say something contrary to what they believe. Like theology, it naturally produces divisions. Theology is vital to Christianity and shouldn't be done away with, politics is another matter; it is unnecessary and divisive. Therefore, it should be done away with amongst Christians.

I do think that some people should avoid politics because of the divisiveness and what it can do to their emotions and attitude. There is some extreme vitriol against the other side at times. I don't think that should be turned into a blanket condemnation against Christians voting.

You wouldn't want a priest preaching on politics after all, would you?

No. But I'm not sure what that has to do with whether a Christian should vote. Voting isn't preaching to a congregation on politics.
Now, if you consider just discussing politics and trying to persuade someone to a particular position to be "preaching", I would say that is being too loose with it. I don't want a preacher using the pulpit to advance a particular political viewpoint but in private discussion I don't mind getting into political matters.

If it isn't a priority, and you are truly devoting yourself to our priorities, you won't have time to keep up with politics.

Only if you define "devotion to Christian priorities" as using ALL your time on that. Do you do anything that isn't related to Christianity? Do you watch TV? Sports? Movies? Play sports? Exercise? Just kick back and relax with friends? Do anything that isn't for the Lord?

Voting, in of itself, isn't a virtue.

Never said it was.

If one is going to vote it must be done only following much research and debate into a matter. Mindlessly voting based upon the rhetoric you hear means nothing.

I agree and wouldn't suggest you vote unless you are educated. I believe poor education of voters is part of the problem with our system.

And if you do all this research and debating, what good is it if you don't influence others to vote similarly? A single vote means nothing after all.

Yep. Education is good. Then people can decide.

Being political, that is if you are going to do it correctly, is thus a very time consuming process and will inevitably take away from your true priorities as a Christian.

You can say that about anything that isn't "Christian". Yet I'm sure you do many things that aren't directly Christian priorities. Especially in this technological age, it doesn't take an exorbitant amount of time to stay up with the news.

See above. Being political isn't a part time thing, not if you want to be a knowledgeable voter dedicated to seeing the 'right' laws passed and the 'right' people in office. Voting, if you are going to do it, shouldn't be a whimsical thing. It becomes a whole nother job. It will thus naturally take away from your real priorities and it will cause divisions amongst Christians and the non-Christians you are supposed to be evangelizing.

See above. Your insistence that making politics a priority will necessarily take away from Christian work is not convincing to me.

And then, of course, there is the issue that we live in a secular state. Will your religion seep into your politics or your politics into your religion? It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to keep them seperate; and I have already given one instance where this happens amongst Right Wing Christians.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by the two seeping into each other.


What do you say if someone asks you about a political topic? Do you politely refrain? Or do you get into discussion?

Politics, what the government does, is something that affects everyone. Since you say Christians shouldn't vote, I assume you just believe that Christians have to accept whatever they do? Come what may? In the New Testament times when the political system was so different I can understand the viewpoint that Christians should be separate and stay out of it, but with a democracy when the people can vote and make their voices heard, I don't see why Christians have to stay out of it. Not that there aren't concerns, many of which you have presented.

I'm interested in how you think government should run. If Christians can't be involved in politics, but Christians are called to evangelize, then the more people are converted, the smaller the pool of potential politicians becomes. If all the US is converted, there can be no government! :freak: :chuckle:

 

[Lon]

Sometimes I'm late on these in deference to something more well-thought out and I was mulling over how to make a short but meaningful post (I know it looks long, but its not that bad, honest).
For better or worse, here goes:

When I was fresh out of Bible college, I was offered a job in a hardware store in Alaska.

"Don't do it! Every believer that has worked there has fallen hard!"

I gave it some thought and prayer and decided God was strong enough for the both of us. I worked there about half a year, no problem. Some of my coworkers were a bit seedy, but I found I enjoyed working there and after they got to know me, asked me questions about my faith.
........
Since the time I was young there has been a warning: "Stay away from politics, they will corrupt your witness and your walk."

Christianity has been strongly influenced by puritans with 'hand's off' policy regarding politics as well. It seems the rule-of-thumb for believers is "vote, but don't get otherwise involved."

A similar sentiment: we are in this world, not of it John 15:18-20 and Jesus said He was a king, but not of this world John 18:36.
This is true but He taught us to pray:
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Paul echos this when he tells us "

1Co 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with ...immoral people.
1Co 5:10 In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world, or the greedy and swindlers and idolaters, since you would then have to go out of the world.

And in Romans 13 he reminds us:

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

And again in another place he reminds us to pray for those men and women. That's involvement!

I read a pastor's quote in preparation for this post. He said: We should be about His business, and that business is heaven. Whatever we do otherwise is wood hay and stubble (paraphrase).

His intent was to tell us not to get involved in things that do not matter, but do we avoid building houses? Selling groceries? This kind of sentiment doesn't make sense to me because it is clear in Jesus' prayer and Romans, that we pray for His will to be done on earth (that matters!). Adding to this, we are lights on a hill that cannot be hid, not even in congress. We are the salt of the earth.

Because of this, I believe Christians should be involved in politics. I ran across an article by Chuck Colson and he wraps this up so much better than I:

As someone who was once known for political dirty tricks, I know, better than most, how ugly politics can get. Does this mean Christians ought to avoid the cutthroat business of politics?
The answer: an emphatic “no!”
First, as I write in my new book, God & Government, Christians have the same civic duties as all citizens: to serve on juries, to pay taxes, to vote, to support candidates they consider the best qualified. We are also commanded to pray for and respect governing authorities.
Second, as citizens of the kingdom of God, Christians are to bring God’s standards of righteousness and justice to bear on the kingdoms of this world - what is sometimes called the cultural commission. Among other things, this means bringing transcendent moral values into public debate.
The popular notion that “you can’t legislate morality” is a myth. Morality is legislated every day from the vantage point of one value system being chosen over another. The question is not whether we will legislate morality, but whose morality gets legislated.
Laws establish, from the view of the state, the rightness or wrongness of human behavior. For example, statutes prohibiting drunk driving, or mandating seat belts, are designed to protect human life. They reflect the moral view that values the dignity and worth of human life.
All Christians are supposed to express their views to government officials, all the way from school boards to the White House. We all need to be engaged.
And third, some Christians are called themselves to political office. President Bush, an outspoken evangelical, has led the fight against the evils of abortion and is engaged in all human rights crusades. I’ve seen many members of Congress, moved by their Christian convictions, take the lead in some of the greatest human-rights campaigns of modern times.
For example, Congressmen Joe Pitts, Frank Wolf, and Chris Smith, along with Senator Sam Brownback, have made a virtual crusade against human rights abuses. In 1998, Congressman Wolf traveled to Tibet, where he posed as an ordinary tourist. Pretending to be ill, he eluded his tour guide and began speaking with Tibetans on the street to get the real story of Chinese repression.
Senator Brownback has traveled to war-torn areas all over the world, and here in the U.S., he’s spent a night in prison with prison inmates, saying he wanted to experience what they were experiencing.
It’s easy to become discouraged, as some Christians are today, when we don’t succeed politically. We need to remember the example of William Wilberforce, who spent decades fighting the British slave trade. His persistence paid off. Not only was the slave trade abolished, a great awakening swept across England.
Christians who are called into the political realm must do their best — no matter how many dirty tricks are played, no matter how much opposition. And don’t get discouraged. Remember that success is not the criteria: faithfulness is.
In the end, Christians have the assurance that even the most difficult political situations are in the hands of a sovereign God. -Chuck Colson, Break Point

His blessings
Get involved! Pray! His kingdom come, His will be done on earth!

 

[Krsto]

The false dichotomy is:

Systems are corrupt only to the extent the people within them are corrupt. One does not inherit corruption by adhering to a system. Otherwise one could certainly refer to churches as corrupt systems since they involve politics to some degree or other.

After having worked closely with state legislators and with pastors I would say on the whole pastors are more corrupt than state legislators.

Some people may find that hard to believe but on average I have more respect for the state legislators than for the pastors behind the pulpits.

 

[Lighthouse]

We are citizens, of course we should be involved.