toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[glorydaz]

If faith is not a work, then neither is continuance in the faith. Ceasing faith is unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith. To say we cannot change our mind and will is determinism, not biblical free will, relational theism.

Saving faith is being FULLY PERSUADED. If you have been fully persuaded of the law of gravity, is it ever possible for you to stop believing in gravity and step out of a ten story window? You present a scenerio of something that is impossible to do when one has once been fully persuaded.

 

[IMJerusha]

Don't talk rubbish, incidently Queen Mum died yonks ago.

Really? Oh yes, in 2002. Sorry. Time flies in our unenlightened nation.

America made a fortune arming Britain to fight alone against Hitler knowing full well that if Britain could not contain Hitler then America itself would not have been safe....you want to read the government papers of the time to discover what the real American plan was....

Best be telling that to your own PM who finds GB to have been a somewhat junior partner with America in the war. An honest bloke, that. Had FDR not agreed to help GB in 1939, his lend-lease program of 1941 would not have been submitted to Congress for approval and GB would have crumbled. GB certainly didn't have any money to put up. By the end of the war America had lent over 50 billion dollars worth of armament and financial support to GB, the USSR and 37 other countries all the while footing the bill for our own interest in the war after Pearl Harbor which forced us into a war we didn't want any part of. Of course, we foot the bill for the reconstruction of your country as well. You just finished paying off your debt at the end of 2006. We made a fortune? Really?

There is not much in the realm of hypocrisy and deceit to equal American foreign policy in any generation...it is staggering. They even got dragged into ww2 through their duplicitous dealings with Japan rather than any moral considerations.

Oh good grief, you've been reading Tansill or worse, Neumann. None of their theories have been proven or accepted as anything other than theory.

The only America I love is the same as the only Britain I love which is the church. Politics is a dirty world of iniquity and intrigue.

The church...you mean the church that's run by the government, the Church of England, or is there another?

The girl spoke the truth, her life at 30 was ruined...the kind of legalistic morality that she was brainswashed in from infancy was the same that actually set her up for ruin. Sending her into the ravenous world of the American high school unguarded and unprotected against the onslaught of temptation she must have encountered.

Her life, at 17 was ruined by her own choice to hide her pregnancy and commit murder. Nothing about the ravenous world of the American high school prevented her from saying "No" to her boyfriend. Nor did that world coax her into placing a healthy, living infant into a plastic bag and tying a knot. You're living in denial and advocating sin.

The American church has the best of the best [and what is best they got from these little British Isles] right across the broad range to the worse of the worse which they also got from Europe, the only thing they didn't import but which they export all around the world are the fabulous cult religions like Watchtower and Mormonism...that is entirely homegrown.

You mean the best government run Church of England? You speak of the Church as though it's a business, something to be manipulated, as opposed to the Body of Yeshua.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Really? Oh yes, in 2002. Sorry. Time flies in our unenlightened nation.
t be telling that to your own PM who finds GB to have been a somewhat junior partner with America in the war. An honest bloke, that. Had FDR not agreed to help GB in 1939, his lend-lease program of 1941 would not have been submitted to Congress for approval and GB would have crumbled. GB certainly didn't have any money to put up. By the end of the war America had lent over 50 billion dollars worth of armament and financial support to GB, the USSR and 37 other countries all the while footing the bill for our own interest in the war after Pearl Harbor which forced us into a war we didn't want any part of. Of course, we foot the bill for the reconstruction of your country as well. You just finished paying off your debt at the end of 2006. We made a fortune? Really?



Oh good grief, you've been reading Tansill or worse, Neumann. None of their theories have been proven or accepted as anything other than theory.

The church...you mean the church that's run by the government, the Church of England, or is there another?



Her life, at 17 was ruined by her own choice to hide her pregnancy and commit murder. Nothing about the ravenous world of the American high school prevented her from saying "No" to her boyfriend. Nor did that world coax her into placing a healthy, living infant into a plastic bag and tying a knot. You're living in denial and advocating sin.



You mean the best government run Church of England? You speak of the Church as though it's a business, something to be manipulated, as opposed to the Body of Yeshua.

Sometimes it's best to let folks have the last word....they can comfort themselves that they won the debate....whatever the debate was. Apple pie I think

 

[Totton Linnet]

If faith is not a work, then neither is continuance in the faith. Ceasing faith is unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith. To say we cannot change our mind and will is determinism, not biblical free will, relational theism.
You can change your mind.....God never did save you on the basis of your opinions about Him and His gospel, He saved you on the basis that He chose you...He brought you to the cross, He made you to understand your lost estate, you cried to Him and He saved you. You became a new creature the old man passed away all things became new.

Passed away...where is this old man you say you can go back to?
LH: You have made MAD a condition of salvation. Hyper-disp is a wrong dispensational view, yet you make my right and conscious rejection of it tantamount to rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ who alone saves by grace through faith apart from works.
Jesus saves...if He failed to save then you could not say Jesus saves, you could only say He trys to save..He'll do His level best...no guarantees

My view is Keith Green's view. If I am going to hell, then he will also be there. Idiot.

I assume that you generally agree that faith is a condition of receiving Christ/eternal life (Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36). If you deny any conditions, then all are unconditionally saved (universalism) and there is no hell, just heaven for everyone.
There is a condition...God's grace through faith and that not of yourself
Few dispute that faith is necessary to receive grace and that faith is not a work, but a response to God. Receiving vs rejecting a free gift does not mean we provide or earn it.
Yes this is where it's at, you change the order, you put faith first, the bible puts grace first. It is His grace and His faith.
You say there is no condition to justification.
Who He foreknew He also predestined called...justified, these are the conditions
This logically means universalism and you are wrong. If there is a condition, you should not be so reluctant to understand my perseverance view. As well, most MAD are not OSAS for a certain group, so I am not far fetched. You are just being inconsistent to retain a hyper-disp view instead of seeing redemptive principles that do not change on the basics (grace/faith).

Because you see the start as being your faith so you see the continuance as being your faith...but we believe in God's grace and it will never fail.

 

[godrulz]

Saving faith is being FULLY PERSUADED. If you have been fully persuaded of the law of gravity, is it ever possible for you to stop believing in gravity and step out of a ten story window? You present a scenerio of something that is impossible to do when one has once been fully persuaded.

There are many people who change religions, even after being persuaded. Why is it unidirectional or exceptional to Christianity? There are Christians who have renounced the faith for Judaism, Islam, atheism, Mormonism, JWs, etc. It is possible to be deceived, change one's mind, etc. You do not have a biblical/logical case. Apostasy is extreme, but possible.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The law of gravity is knowlege not faith...I say it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the gospel...just IMpossible.

That Jesus ws God, born into the womb of virgin...that He hung by nails upon the cross bearing away our sins, died, was buried for 3 days and was raised from the dead.

These [unlike gravity] are impossible facts to believe...unless that saving faith were supernaturally imparted.

 

[glorydaz]

The law of gravity is knowlege not faith...I say it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the gospel...just IMpossible.

That Jesus ws God, born into the womb of virgin...that He hung by nails upon the cross bearing away our sins, died, was buried for 3 days and was raised from the dead.

These [unlike gravity] are impossible facts to believe...unless that saving faith were supernaturally imparted.

You reckon without the preaching of the Gospel, and make claims that are not supported by the Word.

Romans 10:13-15
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

God doesn't believe for us and belief always precedes life. This is where you need to set aside the doctrine you have learned and accept the reason the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

There are many people who change religions, even after being persuaded. Why is it unidirectional or exceptional to Christianity? There are Christians who have renounced the faith for Judaism, Islam, atheism, Mormonism, JWs, etc. It is possible to be deceived, change one's mind, etc. You do not have a biblical/logical case. Apostasy is extreme, but possible.

Faith is not religion, and not all who claim to be Christians are saved. Rather than judge by what you see around you, you should believe what the Word teaches. One must be fully persuaded...not just kinda persuaded leaving themselves to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine that comes their way.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You reckon without the preaching of the Gospel, and make claims that are not supported by the Word.

Romans 10:13-15
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

God doesn't believe for us and belief always precedes life. This is where you need to set aside the doctrine you have learned and accept the reason the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation.

I am making allowance ONLY for the power of God at the preaching of His gospel and none allowance for man to intellectually understand facts which are impossible for man to understand...don't tell me you figgered it out, that your sins were put on Christ when He died 2,000 years ago..getaway with you.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I am making allowance ONLY for the power of God at the preaching of His gospel and none allowance for man to intellectually understand facts which are impossible for man to understand...don't tell me you figgered it out, that your sins were put on Christ when He died 2,000 years ago..getaway with you.

Goodness me some [many] on this forum have been saved these 50 years or so and they STILL do not understand that all their sins were put away at the cross...they have read it a THOUSAND times yet still they cannot grasp it in their minds.

...that's what this debate is about right?

 

[glorydaz]

I am making allowance ONLY for the power of God at the preaching of His gospel and none allowance for man to intellectually understand facts which are impossible for man to understand...don't tell me you figgered it out, that your sins were put on Christ when He died 2,000 years ago..getaway with you.

It seems to me you don't believe what Paul writes in Romans 1, that God created us with the knowledge of our Creator so that He is clearly seen and understood by His creation. In fact, it's why man has NO EXUSE. You give him one by claiming it's impossible to see and understand. How do you account for that in your statement above. Is Paul wrong and why should I believe you rather than Paul?

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Paul's whole argument here is that they knew Him but dint believe, dint give Him the glory. But nobody can understand the facts of the gospel see

The natural man recieveth not the things of God indeed he cannot [except you say he can] they are spiritually discerned.

Explain how you came to understand the cross? or the virgin birth? or the resurrection? Now I believed these things all my life, I was brought up believing them, it never at any time occured to me that they were not true...but this is not the faith which saves.

 

[IMJerusha]

Sometimes it's best to let folks have the last word....they can comfort themselves that they won the debate....whatever the debate was. Apple pie I think

Well, fruit is fruit and facts are facts.

 

[godrulz]

The law of gravity is knowlege not faith...I say it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the gospel...just IMpossible.

That Jesus ws God, born into the womb of virgin...that He hung by nails upon the cross bearing away our sins, died, was buried for 3 days and was raised from the dead.

These [unlike gravity] are impossible facts to believe...unless that saving faith were supernaturally imparted.

Faith is evidence based. Christianity is historical, not myth. The gospel has content and we appeal to the spirit and intellect and will. The Holy Spirit ultimately convinces and convicts, but Calvinistic regeneration precedes faith is not the right model (repentant faith precedes regeneration). You are denying biblical apologetics for fideism?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Faith is evidence based. Christianity is historical, not myth. The gospel has content and we appeal to the spirit and intellect and will. The Holy Spirit ultimately convinces and convicts, but Calvinistic regeneration precedes faith is not the right model (repentant faith precedes regeneration). You are denying biblical apologetics for fideism?

No knowledge is evidence based....faith is revelation. you can KNOW that Jesus Christ lived etc by history but you cain't possibly know that He is God's Son sent to save us...look at keeps [keypurr] he knows the scriptures back to front. But even though you are convinced in your mind this is still not that saving faith that makes you call upon Him, first He make us ALIVE through the gospel....the new birth comes first.

[now I'm in trouble]

 

[Totton Linnet]

It's 3.30 am dear breths....gotta zzz

God bless

 

[glorydaz]

Paul's whole argument here is that they knew Him but dint believe, dint give Him the glory. But nobody can understand the facts of the gospel see

The natural man recieveth not the things of God indeed he cannot [except you say he can] they are spiritually discerned.

No, Paul's whole argument is that God created us with the ability to know and understand God....it's built into our very being. Men from the very beginning have sought God and believed in Him....from the very beginning. So saying men can't know God or don't ever seek God or can't understand God is wrong. Paul is talking about the deeper wisdom of God not the fact that there is a God or that we are quite able to seek Him.

1 Cor. 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

We don't need to know all the facts to be saved. That knowledge comes as the Holy Spirit opens the Word to our understanding. What preaching the Gospel does is it lifts up Jesus Christ, like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. Moses told the people to look upon the serpent and they would live. Those who believed, did. Those who trusted in something else, didn't.

Here's the hook and the dangling worm. The Word itself has POWER when it reaches the ear of man. It calls and draws us to the light.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here's just one example of what the Holy Spirit uses to convict the heart of sin, and a word about how all men sin and come short. People identify with that, for they know it in their inner most being (conscience). All men have one, and God uses it to convict us of sin.

All men are drawn to the light by the preaching of the Gospel. Those who love darkness turn away, those who have followed their conscience are given more light....which leads to their change of mind (repentance unto salvation.)

Explain how you came to understand the cross? or the virgin birth? or the resurrection? Now I believed these things all my life, I was brought up believing them, it never at any time occured to me that they were not true...but this is not the faith which saves.

Hearing the Word preached or reading the Word brings conviction, and trusting brings the indwelling Spirit. That step of faith is small, but it must be taken. God reaches down to us, but we must reach up to find salvation. We don't need to know everything....we just need to LOOK...to COME, and He does all the rest for we are His workmanship not our own.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, Paul's whole argument is that God created us with the ability to know and understand God....it's built into our very being. Men from the very beginning have sought God and believed in Him....from the very beginning. So saying men can't know God or don't ever seek God or can't understand God is wrong. Paul is talking about the deeper wisdom of God not the fact that there is a God or that we are quite able to seek Him.

1 Cor. 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

We don't need to know all the facts to be saved. That knowledge comes as the Holy Spirit opens the Word to our understanding. What preaching the Gospel does is it lifts up Jesus Christ, like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. Moses told the people to look upon the serpent and they would live. Those who believed, did. Those who trusted in something else, didn't.

Here's the hook and the dangling worm. The Word itself has POWER when it reaches the ear of man. It calls and draws us to the light.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here's just one example of what the Holy Spirit uses to convict the heart of sin, and a word about how all men sin and come short. People identify with that, for they know it in their inner most being (conscience). All men have one, and God uses it to convict us of sin.

All men are drawn to the light by the preaching of the Gospel. Those who love darkness turn away, those who have followed their conscience are given more light....which leads to their change of mind (repentance unto salvation.)





Hearing the Word preached or reading the Word brings conviction, and trusting brings the indwelling Spirit. That step of faith is small, but it must be taken. God reaches down to us, but we must reach up to find salvation. We don't need to know everything....we just need to LOOK...to COME, and He does all the rest for we are His workmanship not our own.

Wonderful explanations of truth!

 

[glorydaz]

No knowledge is evidence based....faith is revelation. you can KNOW that Jesus Christ lived etc by history but you cain't possibly know that He is God's Son sent to save us...look at keeps [keypurr] he knows the scriptures back to front. But even though you are convinced in your mind this is still not that saving faith that makes you call upon Him, first He make us ALIVE through the gospel....the new birth comes first.

[now I'm in trouble]

Yep, you're in deep trouble. :chuckle:

Let's look at what comes first, shall we?

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


The best proof comes when Jesus tells us where to look for the answer to this question.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The people had to believe Moses and look upon the serpent....then they would LIVE.

Numbers 21:7-9
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It's YOU who is misunderstanding/misinterpreting Scripture! You
mustn't forget that! If, per chance, you should forget it, I'll remind
you, okay?

I am not teaching OSAS, so it is obvious that I am not misunderstanding scripture.
:chuckle: