toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[genuineoriginal]

I can just see it....I throw out a life preserver to a drowning man and shout, "Hurray, he's saved." Oops the preserver had no line attatched and the man floats on down the river and over the falls. Some salvation that was.

When the drowning man catches the life preserver, he will be saved if he holds fast to it until the end.
If the drowning man refuses to hold fast to the life preserver, he will not be saved.

 

[genuineoriginal]

A believer's security in the salvation of God is the entire reason for preaching the Gospel.

Sounds like you are preaching a different gospel.

What good is preaching the forgiveness of sin if it leads to only a possibility (if we're good enough) of receiving eternal life?

Jesus already said that the forgiveness can be revoked if the master is provoked to wrath.

Matthew 18:32-35 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

we believe in God's grace and it will never fail.

Wrath is the opposite of grace.

You will either gain God's grace or suffer His wrath.

God makes it easy to know which one you will get.

Deuteronomy 7:9-10 9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.​

God does not change in this.

 

[Lighthouse]

If faith is not a work, then neither is continuance in the faith. Ceasing faith is unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith. To say we cannot change our mind and will is determinism, not biblical free will, relational theism.

Faith and belief are not the same thing.

And, again, it is not our faith that saves us. Our faith wavers; it waxes and wanes. We are not always faithful. Our faith is worthless.

Your problem is you trust in yourself and not in Him.

LH: You have made MAD a condition of salvation.

No I haven't, you idiot. No matter how many times I've explained this to you you still get it backwards.

Hyper-disp is a wrong dispensational view, yet you make my right and conscious rejection of it tantamount to rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ who alone saves by grace through faith apart from works.

FALSE!

My view is Keith Green's view. If I am going to hell, then he will also be there. Idiot.

Not.

You really are a moron, aren't you? Not even smart enough to pay attention.

I cannot judge Keith Green because I am unaware if he was ever given the correct information. He may have been only ever fed misinformation, thus it is possible he was saved and was just never given the chance to discern between the truth and the fallacy.

You've been given the chance, as I've given it to you myself, and you reject the truth in favor of falsehood. You claim Scripture doesn't mean what it says.

And since you seem to have forgotten, I used to hold the same view as you and Keith Green. I was saved then. I was never given the truth, until almost a decade ago. That's 20 years under mistaken beliefs, but the evidence Christ was in me even then is that I recognized the truth when I saw it.

I assume that you generally agree that faith is a condition of receiving Christ/eternal life (Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36). If you deny any conditions, then all are unconditionally saved (universalism) and there is no hell, just heaven for everyone.

No, I don't agree that faith is a condition; it is, however, a necessity in that one must necessarily have faith in the truth in order to accept it as the truth and faith in Him, and everything about Him, to accept all entailed.

One must accept that which is given in order to receive it. This is not a condition, but a logical necessity.

Few dispute that faith is necessary to receive grace and that faith is not a work, but a response to God. Receiving vs rejecting a free gift does not mean we provide or earn it.

Not an extant argument.

You say there is no condition to justification. This logically means universalism and you are wrong. If there is a condition, you should not be so reluctant to understand my perseverance view. As well, most MAD are not OSAS for a certain group, so I am not far fetched. You are just being inconsistent to retain a hyper-disp view instead of seeing redemptive principles that do not change on the basics (grace/faith).

If you think that logically leads to universalism you are dumber than the love child of a box of rocks and a bag of hammers.

And all MAD are OSAS for all dispensations. You would know that if you knew anything about MAD. But once again, you show your utmost ignorance, as this very thing has been explained to you numerous times: The previous dispensations were looking forward to salvation, they had not yet received it, at any point. Once they did, however, they were sealed eternally.

I can say this much for genuineoriginal, he at least understands what the parameters were for Israel. His issue is he mistakenly believes they apply to the Body of Christ.

Saving faith is being FULLY PERSUADED. If you have been fully persuaded of the law of gravity, is it ever possible for you to stop believing in gravity and step out of a ten story window? You present a scenerio of something that is impossible to do when one has once been fully persuaded.

:thumb:

There are many people who change religions, even after being persuaded. Why is it unidirectional or exceptional to Christianity? There are Christians who have renounced the faith for Judaism, Islam, atheism, Mormonism, JWs, etc. It is possible to be deceived, change one's mind, etc. You do not have a biblical/logical case. Apostasy is extreme, but possible.

Somebody doesn't know the meaning of "fully persuaded."

 

[godrulz]

Even if you are KJV-only, if you know Greek, you would not say faith and belief are different things (the same Greek word can be translated either/or). Words do have a semantical range of meaning. You can make a distinction in some contexts, but you cannot make an absolute statement like you did based on Greek grammar, word studies, concepts, etc.

The object of our faith is what matters. I trust in Him. You have no basis to say I trust in myself. If God was the only factor, then all would be saved and all would persevere vs some fall away.

We could quibble about the rest, but why confuse you with facts when your mind is already made up?

 

[Lighthouse]

Even if you are KJV-only, if you know Greek, you would not say faith and belief are different things (the same Greek word can be translated either/or). Words do have a semantical range of meaning. You can make a distinction in some contexts, but you cannot make an absolute statement like you did based on Greek grammar, word studies, concepts, etc.

1. Since when have I ever been KJV only?
2. Faith involves trust, and it not solely belief; it goes deeper than you understand, clearly.

The object of our faith is what matters. I trust in Him. You have no basis to say I trust in myself. If God was the only factor, then all would be saved and all would persevere vs some fall away.

:rotfl:

You trust yourself to continue in faith, do you not? This means you do not trust Him to keep you.

We could quibble about the rest, but why confuse you with facts when your mind is already made up?

You wouldn't know the facts if they did you like Gadaffi.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Wrath is the opposite of grace.

You will either gain God's grace or suffer His wrath.

God makes it easy to know which one you will get.

Deuteronomy 7:9-10 9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.​

God does not change in this.

*
But my dear Gen we are not under God's wrath, we's saved. You have always to resort back to the OT testament to make your case. The question is now we are saved can we be returned to an unsaved state? Can we having become born again become unborn again once more? Having been crucified with Christ with all our sins, buried and raised up together with Him to walk in newness of life...for that Paul teaches is the meaning of water baptism....can the old man which has passed away be brought back into being?

The answer must be no, emphatically not.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yep, you're in deep trouble. :chuckle:

Let's look at what comes first, shall we?

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Come come my dear glory, did Abe just suddenly up and believe? wasn't it that God took the initiative and spoke to him? the power to believe comes with the word. And this is proved because the word that came to Abe as to us is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to believe in the natural.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Imma saying these facts are IMpossible to believe, they are spiritually discerned and must be recieved spiritually.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Quite so, our Lord gives the correct order first is the resurrection.

The best proof comes when Jesus tells us where to look for the answer to this question.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The people had to believe Moses and look upon the serpent....then they would LIVE.
Of course the Jews just suddenly woke up and found themselves in the desert a company of God's people.

This provision wasn't even offered to the Anakim or the Moabites the plebisites or even the Egyptians, what did they even know of Mose's rod? you see then that you only get the offer of healing and salvation if God gives you the offer. And if God had not given them the offer no Jew could have by his own wisdom and power discerned to look upon the serpent and so be healed.

Numbers 21:7-9
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

It all starts and ends with God, that they had sinned it was against God, if God were not holy then there would be no sin...the consequences of sin was with God...the remedy for sin was with God, if God had not said they could have looked and looked until the sun went down there would have been no healing, no deliverance, no life.

They would not even have known that to look at a serpent on a pole would bring healing an deliverance...who by their own intelligence could discern such a thing?

So I say no-one by their own wisdom or intelligence is able to understand the cross, it has to come by divine revelation ......and the faith to believe it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I am not teaching OSAS, so it is obvious that I am not misunderstanding scripture.
:chuckle:

You're not preaching OSAS because, you're a wee bit ignorant!
It's not your fault, you just don't accept the truth!

 

[genuineoriginal]

You have always to resort back to the OT testament to make your case.

Of course. God doesn't change. The exact same things that brought His wrath upon the children of disobedience in the Old Testament will still bring His wrath upon the children of disobedience in the New Testament.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.​

The question is now we are saved can we be returned to an unsaved state?
Can we having become born again become unborn again once more? Having been crucified with Christ with all our sins, buried and raised up together with Him to walk in newness of life...for that Paul teaches is the meaning of water baptism....can the old man which has passed away be brought back into being?

The real question is:
If we are able to gain God's favor (grace) and have our names written in the book of life, protecting us from the judgment, is it possible to earn His wrath afterwords by our disobedience and rebellion and have our names blotted out from the book of life, and lose our protection from the judgment?

 

[glorydaz]

When the drowning man catches the life preserver, he will be saved if he holds fast to it until the end.
If the drowning man refuses to hold fast to the life preserver, he will not be saved.

Here's one thing I can guarantee you, having taught life-saving classes for many years, a drowning man will never let go of the life preserver....and if it slips from his grasp, the Lord, who will lose none, will dive in the water and drag him in.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Of course. God doesn't change. The exact same things that brought His wrath upon the children of disobedience in the Old Testament will still bring His wrath upon the children of disobedience in the New Testament.

Ephesians 5:6​ Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.​

Well the very first point I will make is that disobedient children of God or even the children of Israel are not at all to be equated with the children of disobedience Paul speaks about.....their disobedience is that of Cain in that they reject the blood sacrifice, we have not rejected the blood sacrifice. The wrath of God is big subject, it is different from God's hot displeasure with His people.

They are still His people though He is sore displeased with them, He will punish them [He may not] He may even kill them but there ought not to be the automatic assumption that Evangelicals make that having punished them, having killed them He will also damn them forever...they are still the church, they serve as ensamples unto us upon whom the end of the world have come.

How many redden hot sermons have you heard about Lot's wife? God punishes His people now so that they may not need to be punished after.

God does not change but His dispensations sure do. He does not treat us as under the law...but you are insisting that He does [by implication]


The real question is:
If we are able to gain God's favor (grace) and have our names written in the book of life, protecting us from the judgment, is it possible to earn His wrath afterwords by our disobedience and rebellion and have our names blotted out from the book of life, and lose our protection from the judgment?

John says we have passed over from judgement, we are passed from death to life.
Paul speaking of the Lord's return and our gathering to meet Him says nothing about judgement either in 1.Cor:15 or 2.Thess.2. where he says specifically "so shall we always be with the Lord" whatever judgement we have it is not the Great White Throne judgement.

We didn't gain God's favour, He lavished it upon us. "we love Him because He first loved us" nor did we choose Him but He chose us.

And what was it that so displeased God with them? they doubted, above all they doubted that God having delivered them out of bondage would finally bring them into the land of promise...that is what your doctrine is doing just the same.

 

[Totton Linnet]

When the drowning man catches the life preserver, he will be saved if he holds fast to it until the end.
If the drowning man refuses to hold fast to the life preserver, he will not be saved.

Oh dammit but He is holding onto us...not only are we in His hands but in the Father's hand and nobody, man or devil can snatch us out of His hand.

 

[glorydaz]

Sounds like you are preaching a different gospel.

Jesus already said that the forgiveness can be revoked if the master is provoked to wrath.

Matthew 18:32-35 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

Our forgiving others is not a requirement for our salvation.

The servant who had no compassion was not a saved man, so this is another of those cases where every possible verse is turned to in order to "prove" salvation can be lost. One would think that line of thinking would get quite old. Let's dig and probe through the Word of God and find something that sounds like salvation can be lost. :nono:

 

[glorydaz]

Oh dammit but He is holding onto us...not only are we in His hands but in the Father's hand and nobody, man or devil can snatch us out of His hand.

LOL It does get a little frustrating, doesn't it? What kind of faith is that in our Great and Mighty Lord and Saviour? :sigh:

 

[glorydaz]

Wrath is the opposite of grace.

You will either gain God's grace or suffer His wrath.

God makes it easy to know which one you will get.

Deuteronomy 7:9-10 9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.​

God does not change in this.

Uh, we got the grace which means we don't get the wrath....there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We have passed from death unto life. Saved by grace through faith.

 

[glorydaz]

It all starts and ends with God, that they had sinned it was against God, if God were not holy then there would be no sin...the consequences of sin was with God...the remedy for sin was with God, if God had not said they could have looked and looked until the sun went down there would have been no healing, no deliverance, no life.

They would not even have known that to look at a serpent on a pole would bring healing an deliverance...who by their own intelligence could discern such a thing?

So I say no-one by their own wisdom or intelligence is able to understand the cross, it has to come by divine revelation ......and the faith to believe it.

Ah, divine revelation is not life. Life is given after we believe in that divine revelation. We are begotten by the Gospel....by hearing the Word and being persuaded by it's truth. Of course, everything begins with God. He draws us to the Light...to Himself. We can either accept or reject. That is the choice we must make.

 

[godrulz]

Oh dammit but He is holding onto us...not only are we in His hands but in the Father's hand and nobody, man or devil can snatch us out of His hand.

No one can take us from the hand of God, but we can jump out. A verse that says persecution, demons, death cannot separate believers from God's love does not negate the verses that show we can turn our back on God, apostasize, fall away. You are selective with your evidence to support your view, but ignore things that contradict it.

The only way to embrace all relevant evidence is to see that there is a conditional element to conversion/perseverance, a Godward and a manward issue.

 

[genuineoriginal]

And what was it that so displeased God with them? they doubted, above all they doubted that God having delivered them out of bondage would finally bring them into the land of promise...that is what your doctrine is doing just the same.

You have no reason to doubt if you are continuing in faithful obedience to Him.
Jesus will only save those that believe in Him enough to continue in faithful obedience to His Will.

If you are relying on OSAS to save you from your unfaithfulness, then you are not looking towards Jesus to save you, and should be doubting.

1 Peter 1:17 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Uh, we got the grace which means we don't get the wrath....there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We have passed from death unto life. Saved by grace through faith.

You were declared righteous when you repented of your sins and accepted Jesus as your saviour.

Now that you are righteous, you need to continue living righteously.

Ezekiel 18:24 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​