toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[godrulz]

Exactly, and it isn't a gift if you have to earn it.

Faith is not a work nor is continuing vs ceasing faith. This is an old, lame Calvinistic misunderstanding of free will, manward faith. Receiving a free gift by faith in response to the influence of the Spirit is not providing or earning it. I cannot die for myself and I cannot earn it. This is why we need grace/Christ. Those who think I reject this are making a non sequitur argument based on their arrogant ignorance.

 

[IMJerusha]

*
Americans...I LOVE Americans but you won't like what I will say to you.

Americans have a morality brainwashed into them, a sense of what is right and wrong. It is instilled into them from the earliest age. It is a legalistic morality and when it is outraged it behaves in exactly the same way as any other instilled code of conduct....it has more to do with taboo than righteousness.

I am taking a liberty in saying this but I say in love, when Paul spoke about bringing folk to shame in the assembly, they were not people who have made a mess...dammit you have people like Swaggart by the hundreds and thousands in America...they get away with it all, they've got money and position. Moralistic politicians the same. But a highschool girl gets the double clobber....you cain't see it, I know you can't.

Now I said I LOVE you Americans and I do...well I do. America is the last bastion of freedom.

This is deep stuff but I think it will go by you.....it is this sense of morality, the legalistic right and wrongness, the utter dread of being shamed and punished [not usually a one/off shaming and punishing but likely a lifetime] that drives people like that young girl to do such desperate things.

And young people in America do actually mature a shade later than their European counterparts.

I will bet my last penny that girl when she served 8 years came out and rebuilded her shattered life, do you know how I have confidence to say that? because I know my God...He is the God of broken hearts and broken lives.

A Potter saw a vessel
that had been broken by the winds and the rain
and He saw with so much compassion
that He made it over again.

Oh yes, the deep stuff of life totally escapes us Americans. I wonder if your Queen Mum would say the same since she knows that our sense of morality and legalistic right and wrongness is what saved her country's bacon...so to speak. Don't love America because it's the last bastion of freedom, Sister. Love America because Great Britain might not be there were it not for America's brave men and women who understood so completely the deep stuff of life.

Just so you know, the little miss came out of prison with nothing but complaint about how she was almost 30 and had nothing to show for her life. That's about a verbatim quote. Perhaps she should move to Great Britain and hang out with all her "enlightened" citizens.

 

[Lighthouse]

I do not deny and refuse his grace. Give me a reason for your retarded accusation.

You believe it is conditional.

I received the free gift of eternal life by grace through faith in 1978. I was transformed as I was transferred from darkness to light.

Apparently not, since you believe you can technically reject it at a later date. If such is true then no transformation has taken place.

Rom. 10:9-10 applies to me, not just you. Jn. 1:12 is a true promise even though it is not MAD Paul. Jn. 3:16 is as simple as it gets, but you twist and complicate it.

I twist and complicate nothing. You have admitted several times by your own words that you do not believe in Him; as you deny the efficacy of His sacrifice to cleanse you from all unrighteousness, once and for all; and His grace to keep you.

I do not deny His saving and keeping grace and power, but I do not make the Calvinistic mistake of saying it is irresistible, because I am a free will theist, not a determinist.

Is it resistible after one receives it? Basically, I am asking you to restate your answer to the thread question; could one who is saved later reject that salvation?

I know the King/kingdom rules with love, freedom, relationship, responsibility, not causation/coercion like inanimate creation. So, I am consistent to reject universalism and OSAS, like many many godly evangelicals who are not Reformed/Calvinistic (POTS) or the cults and some compromised Christians who teach more inclusivistic views.

Can the quickened be made dead again?

Honestly, why do people dabble in theology when they don't understand the doctrinal disputes that divide us?
:hammer:

Why do you argue theology when you don't understand the Bible?

 

[godrulz]

You believe justification is conditional, but are inconsistent to not see perseverance as such.

Do you really believe John Wesley, Arminius, etc. are in hell because they reject this Calvinstic doctrine?! Is Keith Green in hell? Most Calvinists would not go this far. There are many people who reject OSAS who know and love Jesus. You are totally misunderstanding the debate if you think it is a denial of grace, faith, etc.

Rejecting OSAS (manmade) is not rejecting justification by grace through faith apart from works.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Oh yes, the deep stuff of life totally escapes us Americans. I wonder if your Queen Mum would say the same since she knows that our sense of morality and legalistic right and wrongness is what saved her country's bacon...so to speak. Don't love America because it's the last bastion of freedom, Sister. Love America because Great Britain might not be there were it not for America's brave men and women who understood so completely the deep stuff of life.

Just so you know, the little miss came out of prison with nothing but complaint about how she was almost 30 and had nothing to show for her life. That's about a verbatim quote. Perhaps she should move to Great Britain and hang out with all her "enlightened" citizens.

Don't talk rubbish, incidently Queen Mum died yonks ago. America made a fortune arming Britain to fight alone against Hitler knowing full well that if Britain could not contain Hitler then America itself would not have been safe....you want to read the government papers of the time to discover what the real American plan was....

There is not much in the realm of hypocrisy and deceit to equal American foreign policy in any generation...it is staggering. They even got dragged into ww2 through their duplicitous dealings with Japan rather than any moral considerations.

The only America I love is the same as the only Britain I love which is the church. Politics is a dirty world of iniquity and intrigue.

The girl spoke the truth, her life at 30 was ruined...the kind of legalistic morality that she was brainswashed in from infancy was the same that actually set her up for ruin. Sending her into the ravenous world of the American high school unguarded and unprotected against the onslaught of temptation she must have encountered.

The American church has the best of the best [and what is best they got from these little British Isles] right across the broad range to the worse of the worse which they also got from Europe, the only thing they didn't import but which they export all around the world are the fabulous cult religions like Watchtower and Mormonism...that is entirely homegrown.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Don't blame it on freewill, Totton. We must stop resisting and freely come...look, eat of the bread of life and drink from the waters of salvation. Then we become His workmanship...only when we have stopped resisting can He begin His work in us.

You have only pulled the work for salvation sock inside out.

 

[genuineoriginal]

GenO, is a works/deeds kind of guy!

I guess I take after my Father in that regard.

1 Peter 1:17 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So, blaming OSAS for the misunderstanding of men is just plain dumb.

How is a doctrine based on misunderstanding the scriptures not to blame for the destruction it causes?

2 Peter 3:15-16 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

God used the perfect example when He called us His sheep. Sheep have no defenses. They must rely totally on the shepherd to pull them out of any pit, to lead and guide them, to keep away the wolves. The sheep won't boast it was by their endurance that they arrived in the home pasture. They will know, without a doubt, they were KEPT safe from all harm.

The shepherd leads and guides the sheep, but that doesn't do anything unless the sheep move their own legs to propel themselves in the direction they are being led and guided.
The sheep cannot arrive in the home pasture unless they perform the actions on their own that are needed to follow the shepherd.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Once a person is circumcised of heart, they can no more uncircumcise it than a man could uncircumcise his own flesh if he had had that done physically.

Many Jews during the time of the Seleucids had surgery to uncircumcise themselves. It is written in the book of I Maccabees.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Many Jews during the time of the Seleucids had surgery to uncircumcise themselves. It is written in the book of I Maccabees.

They used spam... guffaw

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I guess I take after my Father in that regard.

1 Peter 1:17 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:​

G-man, Try as you may, you'll not be able to work your way into
Heaven! Your efforts will be in vain!

 

[Lighthouse]

You believe justification is conditional, but are inconsistent to not see perseverance as such.

Oh, really? So what conditions do I think are required for justification? Why don't you go ahead and tell me what I believe...

Do you really believe John Wesley, Arminius, etc. are in hell because they reject this Calvinstic doctrine?!

Nope. I don't have any reason to believe they're in hell.

Is Keith Green in hell?

Same goes for Keith.

Most Calvinists would not go this far. There are many people who reject OSAS who know and love Jesus. You are totally misunderstanding the debate if you think it is a denial of grace, faith, etc.

You don't understand my position at all.:nono:

Rejecting OSAS (manmade) is not rejecting justification by grace through faith apart from works.

Misunderstanding and rejection are separate things. You have rejected the very words of Scripture when lain before you. As I do not know those dead men you mentioned I can accept they may have simply mixed dispensations being unaware there was a delineation. I know you've been shown, and you still reject it. If Christ was in you you would accept His truth.

And, FYI, I do not believe your rejection keeps you from salvation; I believe your lack of salvation keeps you from knowing the difference between the truth and the misinformation.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

How is a doctrine based on misunderstanding the scriptures not to blame for the destruction it causes?

2 Peter 3:15-16 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

It's YOU who is misunderstanding/misinterpreting Scripture! You
mustn't forget that! If, per chance, you should forget it, I'll remind
you, okay?

 

[glorydaz]

The shepherd leads and guides the sheep, but that doesn't do anything unless the sheep move their own legs to propel themselves in the direction they are being led and guided.
The sheep cannot arrive in the home pasture unless they perform the actions on their own that are needed to follow the shepherd.

You don't know much about sheep, do you? If one of those sheep refuses to move it's own legs the shepherd reaches out with his long staff and pulls. If that gets old, the shepherd has a rod with which he smacks the sheep until it gets back among the herd.

See how you put the sheep's effort for getting home on that stupid animal instead of on the Good Shepherd whose reponsibility it is to bring all His sheep home? He paid a good price for each one and He will not fail simply because of the contrary nature of His charges.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You don't know much about sheep, do you? If one of those sheep refuses to move it's own legs the shepherd reaches out with his long staff and pulls. If that gets old, the shepherd has a rod with which he smacks the sheep until it gets back among the herd.

See how you put the sheep's effort for getting home on that stupid animal instead of on the Good Shepherd whose reponsibility it is to bring all His sheep home? He paid a good price for each one and He will not fail simply because of the contrary nature of His charges.

Excellent point Glory!

 

[glorydaz]

Faith is not a work nor is continuing vs ceasing faith. This is an old, lame Calvinistic misunderstanding of free will, manward faith. Receiving a free gift by faith in response to the influence of the Spirit is not providing or earning it. I cannot die for myself and I cannot earn it. This is why we need grace/Christ. Those who think I reject this are making a non sequitur argument based on their arrogant ignorance.

Please stop using the name of Calvin to bolster your arguments. This has nothing to do with Calvin. What you are doing is claiming grace for one's being saved, and then dropping grace for works in order to remain saved. Salvation isn't salvation at all if one can lose it.

I can just see it....I throw out a life preserver to a drowning man and shout, "Hurray, he's saved." Oops the preserver had no line attatched and the man floats on down the river and over the falls. Some salvation that was.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Please stop using the name of Calvin to bolster your arguments. This has nothing to do with Calvin. What you are doing is claiming grace for one's being saved, and then dropping grace for works in order to remain saved. Salvation isn't salvation at all if one can lose it.

I can just see it....I throw out a life preserver to a drowning man and shout, "Hurray, he's saved." Oops the preserver had no line attatched and the man floats on down the river and over the falls. Some salvation that was.

godrulz probably feels more comfortable with that analogy, than he
does, the truth!

 

[glorydaz]

How is a doctrine based on misunderstanding the scriptures not to blame for the destruction it causes?

2 Peter 3:15-16 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

It's based on the Truth of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It's the Hope of Glory that we preach to all nations. So, nice try. A believer's security in the salvation of God is the entire reason for preaching the Gospel. What good is preaching the forgiveness of sin if it leads to only a possibility (if we're good enough) of receiving eternal life?

 

[godrulz]

If faith is not a work, then neither is continuance in the faith. Ceasing faith is unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith. To say we cannot change our mind and will is determinism, not biblical free will, relational theism.

LH: You have made MAD a condition of salvation. Hyper-disp is a wrong dispensational view, yet you make my right and conscious rejection of it tantamount to rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ who alone saves by grace through faith apart from works.

My view is Keith Green's view. If I am going to hell, then he will also be there. Idiot.

I assume that you generally agree that faith is a condition of receiving Christ/eternal life (Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36). If you deny any conditions, then all are unconditionally saved (universalism) and there is no hell, just heaven for everyone.

Few dispute that faith is necessary to receive grace and that faith is not a work, but a response to God. Receiving vs rejecting a free gift does not mean we provide or earn it.

You say there is no condition to justification. This logically means universalism and you are wrong. If there is a condition, you should not be so reluctant to understand my perseverance view. As well, most MAD are not OSAS for a certain group, so I am not far fetched. You are just being inconsistent to retain a hyper-disp view instead of seeing redemptive principles that do not change on the basics (grace/faith).