toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[godrulz]

Are you asking if uncertainty means a person is automatically unfaithful?

What do you think a person is doubting when they claim that OSAS is not scriptural?

One with a high degree of biblical assurance is not risking falling away just because they doctrinally, biblically believe it is theoretically possible vs impossible:hammer:

 

[glorydaz]

Those that endure until the end, shall be saved.

BTW...this is not talking about our eternal salvation. It is talking about the coming tribulations and our physical life. Read it in context and you should be able to see what Jesus was talking about. Otherwise, we should all wish our days would be shortened just in case we mess up before we die.

Matt. 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[glorydaz]

There is a difference between honest doubts or wavering as believers (Thomas, Peter) and a final rejection of great light without remaining in the light and becoming a godless unbeliever, not just a struggling believer (Judas; apostates).

Apostasy is an extreme thing, not just a doubt or fleshly sin common to most believers.

Judas was no more a believer than the coming Antichrist...they are both sons of perdition.

 

[glorydaz]

I assume you are referring to 2 Tim 1:12, which is my favorite verse in the KJV.
How about v14 then...where Paul finishes that thought with the following words; Guard the good deposit by the Holy Spirit that indwells us.

Looks to me like we have some responsibility here. You can't really rest all the time if you have to GUARD the deposit now can you?

Again, you don't have a clue what it means to REST in the Lord, and we don't "guard" the deposit of the Holy Spirit. We guard the Truth the Holy Spirit has revealed to us....which means we speak up against those false teachers who deny the Truth of the Word of God. Plucking a verse out of context always results in the same error you continue to put forth.

2 Timothy 1:12-14
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

 

[godrulz]

Judas was no more a believer than the coming Antichrist...they are both sons of perdition.

He BECAME such in the end, but was not predestined from eternity past to be so, was not born that way, was not chosen as an apostle in that state. Do you think he was full of Satan at all times or do you believe the chronology of the Bible that it happened after his downward spiral?

I already asked you, but you did not answer. Refresh my memory. Are you Calvinistic in your paradigm?

 

[glorydaz]

Are you asking if uncertainty means a person is automatically unfaithful?
What do you think a person is doubting when they claim that OSAS is not scriptural?

One must be fully persuaded that God is able to perform what He has promised....not that we must help Him. If one is not fully persuaded, then his faith does NOT justify him before God. Staggering at the Promises of God IS unbelief.

Romans 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

[glorydaz]

I have no doubt in the matter, I am fully convinced in my own mind.

There is not a single person alive today that has already received eternal life.

There are many people who have had their names written in the book of life, and they will receive eternal life at the resurrection of life.

There are many people that had their names written in the book of life who have had those names blotted out because they did not continue in the faith, and they will be part of the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

Those who have their sins blotted out are written in the Lamb's Book of life and Jesus has promised He will NOT blot them out of His book. If you notice there are books (plural).


So, yes, there certainly are many who are have passed from death unto life, and when Christ appears, we also will appear with Him in glory. Don't wait....today may be your last. The gate is narrow, you must be carried through, trusting in Him alone...not in yourself. If you are waiting to see whether you endure by any merit of your own, you'll have waited too long.

Colossians 3:2-4
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[glorydaz]

Some on this thread should ban together and start their own club; "The uncertain ones!"

AMEN, GM. :thumb:

It's called staggering at the Promises of God....that He is able to perform....that He needs our help. That is NOT what being saved by grace through faith is all about. Man forever wants the glory for his own salvation.

 

[godrulz]

Again, you don't have a clue what it means to REST in the Lord, and we don't "guard" the deposit of the Holy Spirit. We guard the Truth the Holy Spirit has revealed to us....which means we speak up against those false teachers who deny the Truth of the Word of God. Plucking a verse out of context always results in the same error you continue to put forth.

2 Timothy 1:12-14
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

He is talking to believers, not apostates (other contexts deal with former believers). So, proof texting a verse about our promises/privileges as believers (who die as believers also) does not negate ones that show the possibility of falling away and being lumped in with unbelievers.

 

[godrulz]

AMEN, GM. :thumb:

It's called staggering at the Promises of God....that He is able to perform....that He needs our help. That is NOT what being saved by grace through faith is all about. Man forever wants the glory for his own salvation.

Calvinists say that faith is a work if it is not a result of causative regeneration. TULIP is unbiblical, illogical, problematic.

Just as receiving the gift of eternal life by grace through faith is not a work (grace is Godward grounds and faith is manward conditions), so continuing in the faith is NOT a work. It is the nature of saving faith, but not automatic (someone can cease to believe and reject Christ and His work later). We are not saved or kept by works, but by faith, the kind that continues vs ceases (ceased faith is actually unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith).

 

[glorydaz]

He BECAME such in the end, but was not predestined from eternity past to be so, was not born that way, was not chosen as an apostle in that state. Do you think he was full of Satan at all times or do you believe the chronology of the Bible that it happened after his downward spiral?

I already asked you, but you did not answer. Refresh my memory. Are you Calvinistic in your paradigm?

No, I am not Calvinistic, nor is believing in the security of the believer Calvin's truth. It is the Truth of the Word of God. He lucked out on that one, although he added to that truth by claiming God chooses some and not others. We "persevere" because we are His workmanship, having placed our faith in Jesus Christ. We are saved because we are IN the Elect ONE, and for no other reason.

No, I don't believe Judas was full of satan when he was chosen as a disciple, but he was chosen because his heart was hard already and God knew that. Just as God raised up pharoah, who already had a heart that was hard, and used him for a purpose.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, I am not Calvinistic, nor is believing in the security of the believer Calvin's truth. It is the Truth of the Word of God. He lucked out on that one, although he added to that truth by claiming God chooses some and not others. We "persevere" because we are His workmanship, having placed our faith in Jesus Christ. We are saved because we are IN the Elect ONE, and for no other reason.

No, I don't believe Judas was full of satan when he was chosen as a disciple, but he was chosen because his heart was hard already and God knew that. Just as God raised up pharoah, who already had a heart that was hard, and used him for a purpose.

Excellent post!

 

[glorydaz]

I did some research on this issue and I accept that this explanation of the withered fig tree is a symbolic or metaphorical way to indicate the decline of the religious system of Judaism and an indication of God's immanent judgement on the façade of religiosity that had permeated it.
However it also represents the immanent end to the OC and the beginning of the NC. God still required His people to obey HIS law but it was now one that was personal in nature and REQUIRED personal obedience. It was no longer the appearance of righteousness, but as Jesus warned in Matthew 23:23, it was a now a matter of fulfilling God's directions.

The following link offers a very good exegesis of this scripture.

Withered Fig Tree


Scripture still shows we are to do ALL we can to advance the cause of Christ. Not works FOR salvation, but works as a RESULT of salvation.

James 1:22-25
22 But be doers of the word and not merely hearers, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if someone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a person who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 then after looking at himself he goes away and immediately forgets what he was like. 25 But the person who looks intently into the perfect law, the law that provides liberty, and continues in it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an active doer—he will be blessed in his doing.

Yes, God has ordained that we should do good works. They are evidence that we are His workmanship....not done through striving in our own efforts, but as we're moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

He is talking to believers, not apostates (other contexts deal with former believers). So, proof texting a verse about our promises/privileges as believers (who die as believers also) does not negate ones that show the possibility of falling away and being lumped in with unbelievers.

A believer is one who has been fully persuaded, had a heart circumcised by the Spirit, and is sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption. A believer is one who has passed from death unto life. There is NO DOUBT a believer will never come under condemnation for the simple fact that it's promised in the Word. Once a believer, always a believer.... if indeed they were truly saved to begin with.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[IMJerusha]

And I'm sure he feels sorry for you, IMJerusha, as I do, because you have proven you have no assurance of your salvation. You quote verses that you think claim we can lose our salvation, but you quote them without knowledge....for they say no such thing.

So Yeshua did not die on the cross for all mankind?...That is what you are stating. He did not secure the salvation of all people's. And everything that Yeshua said about needing to do the Father's Will or needing to remain in Him is just a pile of hooey? That is what you are stating. You state unequivocally that Yeshua did not die for whoever does not believe the OSAS doctrine. According to you, salvation is in the OSAS doctrine...not in the work of Yeshua on the cross.

 

[glorydaz]

So Yeshua did not die on the cross for all mankind?...That is what you are stating. He did not secure the salvation of all people's. And everything that Yeshua said about needing to do the Father's Will or needing to remain in Him is just a pile of hooey? That is what you are stating. You state unequivocally that Yeshua did not die for whoever does not believe the OSAS doctrine. According to you, salvation is in the OSAS doctrine...not in the work of Yeshua on the cross.

I guess you can't read...no wonder you have trouble understanding what the Word tells you quite plainly.

Jesus went to the cross so that whoever trusts in Him for salvation will be saved. Trusting in Him....not in oneself is the entire key to saving faith. So, don't try to tell me what I'm stating since you obviously interpret my words the same way you do the scripture...with a set of blinders of your own design.

 

[IMJerusha]

I guess you can't read...no wonder you have trouble understanding what the Word tells you quite plainly.

Jesus went to the cross so that whoever trusts in Him for salvation will be saved. Trusting in Him....not in oneself is the entire key to saving faith. So, don't try to tell me what I'm stating since you obviously interpret my words the same way you do the scripture...with a set of blinders of your own design.

Yeshua died for all, God wanting none to perish and apparently, you don't believe that. Whether all accept Yeshua for who He is and what He did is something else entirely. I choose to accept Yeshua's blood for my salvation and to remain in Him with the help of Ruach HaKodesh. Every time you tell someone they have no assurance of salvation, you deny the work of Yeshua on their behalf. Every time you have stated that, you have told Yeshua that His sacrifice wasn't adequate for that person.

 

[godrulz]

No, I am not Calvinistic, nor is believing in the security of the believer Calvin's truth. It is the Truth of the Word of God. He lucked out on that one, although he added to that truth by claiming God chooses some and not others. We "persevere" because we are His workmanship, having placed our faith in Jesus Christ. We are saved because we are IN the Elect ONE, and for no other reason.

No, I don't believe Judas was full of satan when he was chosen as a disciple, but he was chosen because his heart was hard already and God knew that. Just as God raised up pharoah, who already had a heart that was hard, and used him for a purpose.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God further judicially hardened it. This is also not a matter of personal salvation since freedom and responsibility are not tampered with.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeshua died for all, God wanting none to perish and apparently, you don't believe that.

Apparently to who? You, who can't even understand what I post much less what Scripture says?
Put up or shut up. Where have I ever said Jesus didn't die for all or where I've even suggested God wants any to perish.

Whether all accept Yeshua for who He is and what He did is something else entirely. I choose to accept Yeshua's blood for my salvation and to remain in Him with the help of Ruach HaKodesh.

If you are IN CHRIST, it is He who keeps you. Your choice to be obedient or not only affects how much chastening you receive.

Every time you tell someone they have no assurance of salvation, you deny the work of Yeshua on their behalf.

That's the biggest bunch of malarkey I've heard from you yet. Paul says to examine yourself whether you be in the faith. That's exactly what I'm telling you and all the others who have no assurance of salvation. The opposite of assurance is doubt. Doubt is what you preach since you have made it clear a believer can lose his salvation. Or is it only "those other guys" that might lose their salvation...not someone like you who is so much holier than everyone else?

One must be fully persuaded that Jesus saves and that HE ALONE is the Saviour. You don't stay saved because you "choose" to remain in Him. If you are His, you have been bought and paid for and have already surrendered yourself to His keeping.

Every time you have stated that, you have told Yeshua that His sacrifice wasn't adequate for that person.

No, you're the one who claims Jesus' sacrifice isn't adequate. You claim you have to add something to that work on the cross. You claim you have to help Jesus keep you unto the day of redemption. You prove you don't trust Him to do the work in you.

 

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by glorydaz
No, I am not Calvinistic, nor is believing in the security of the believer Calvin's truth. It is the Truth of the Word of God. He lucked out on that one, although he added to that truth by claiming God chooses some and not others. We "persevere" because we are His workmanship, having placed our faith in Jesus Christ. We are saved because we are IN the Elect ONE, and for no other reason.

No, I don't believe Judas was full of satan when he was chosen as a disciple, but he was chosen because his heart was hard already and God knew that. Just as God raised up pharoah, who already had a heart that was hard, and used him for a purpose.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God further judicially hardened it. This is also not a matter of personal salvation since freedom and responsibility are not tampered with.

That's what I said. Judas was raised up for a purpose. His heart was already hard. Jesus knew when He chose Judas that he didn't believe....he came in as a false friend to eat at Jesus' table. That was the very reason Judas was chosen. Judas had an evil heart when he was chosen....he was never a believer who "fell away."

John 12:4-6
Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.