toldailytopic: Judging

[minuteman]

I am saying that I don't punish people for their sins, its not my place. There are two connotations that 'judge' can mean given different contexts: 1) discernment, 2) justice [aka punishment for sin]

All the pro-judging people here seem to see you as sneaking in this slight-of-hand. First you were saying that we shouldn't tell people that they are doing something wrong. Now you are saying that we shouldn't punish people. Where did that come from? As if we are going around spanking people on their bottoms? What? :whip:

So since no one here has said that by judging they mean we should personally punish people for their sins, please address the real topic of why you think it is wrong to tell people that what they are doing is wrong?

 

[csuguy]

All the pro-judging people here seem to see you as sneaking in this slight-of-hand. First you were saying that we shouldn't tell people that they are doing something wrong. Now you are saying that we shouldn't punish people. Where did that come from? As if we are going around spanking people on their bottoms? What? :whip:

So since no one here has said that by judging they mean we should personally punish people for their sins, please address the real topic of why you think it is wrong to tell people that what they are doing is wrong?

I haven't changed my position at all, I have only been distinguishing between the two connotations of 'judge' and saying that one is ok for us to apply to non-Christians [discernment] and the other is not [punishment for sins]. I Cor 5 is very clear on the issue.

As for acknowledging that people are sinning - if that's all you are honestly doing [vs social outcasting] then you are technically ok under I Cor 5. However, usually when a Christian goes around judging people - they go around condemning them and telling them they are going to hell. They treat them horribly because they are sinners (as if Christians haven't sinned) and I would stick that under the second connotation. This is NOT the model Christ gave us for evangelism, and - in fact - it is counter-productive.

 

[Choleric]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 18th, 2009 10:26 AM

toldailytopic: Some people say Christians shouldn't judge (Mat 7:1), others say we should judge rightly (Luke 7:43). What's your judgment on this issue?

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When Jesus said "judge not that ye be not judged", he was making a statement of fact, not giving exhortation for Christian living.

Jesus also said:

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Paul clarifies this a bit in Romans:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Essentially, Paul is saying that we will be judged based on the standard we judge others, which is evidence as to the truth that we hold. If I become angry with another person for lying to me, I admit to the fact that lying is bad. That is a truth that I hold. From that moment on, I am breaking my own standard every time I lie. Therefore, by my own judgement, I will be judged.

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

God is going to judge the world based on each persons' individual standard. God will judge me, based on the truth I hold, the light He has given me. It is an incredibly fair way to judge.

Luke 7:43 is not speaking to the measure with which we will be measured, it is simply a statement of fact.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am judging [in the connotation of discerning] that he has done wrong - but I am not seeking to punish him for his sins.

What about punishing him for his crimes? Do you think you have the freedom to judge what punishment a child molester should receive, if any, for the crime [apart from the sin aspect]?

 

[Lighthouse]

"I'm not punishing you for your sins, so I'm not judging you." Poppycock!

 

[minuteman]

I haven't changed my position at all, I have only been distinguishing between the two connotations of 'judge' and saying that one is ok for us to apply to non-Christians [discernment] and the other is not [punishment for sins]. I Cor 5 is very clear on the issue.

As for acknowledging that people are sinning - if that's all you are honestly doing [vs social outcasting] then you are technically ok under I Cor 5. However, usually when a Christian goes around judging people - they go around condemning them and telling them they are going to hell. They treat them horribly because they are sinners (as if Christians haven't sinned) and I would stick that under the second connotation. This is NOT the model Christ gave us for evangelism, and - in fact - it is counter-productive.

So it's ok to judge in your own mind that someone is doing wrong, but you shouldn't tell them about it? And you especially shouldn't tell them what will happen to them because of the wrong things they are doing? Is that your view?

As an example, it would be wrong for me to go onto your college campus and tell people to repent of their sins and turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness? And then if they just mocked me, it would be especially bad for me to tell them that judgment day is going to be REALLY bad for them? Is that a good example of the wrong model you are referring to? (You seem to have experienced campus preachers).

 

[csuguy]

What about punishing him for his crimes? Do you think you have the freedom to judge what punishment a child molester should receive, if any, for the crime [apart from the sin aspect]?

It's not the churches job. The child molester should be stopped and prevented from doing it again, but beyond that is not the churches right/responsibility.

 

[Lighthouse]

It's not the churches job. The child molester should be stopped and prevented from doing it again, but beyond that is not the churches right/responsibility.

Who said anything about the church? I'm talking about you as an individual. Do you have any right [from God] to speak on what the proper punishment for a crime should be?

 

[csuguy]

So it's ok to judge in your own mind that someone is doing wrong, but you shouldn't tell them about it? And you especially shouldn't tell them what will happen to them because of the wrong things they are doing? Is that your view?

My view is that you shouldn't socially punish people for their sins - it is not our place to act as judges on non-Christians, not yet at any rate.

It's one thing to acknowledge that we are all sinners, that we all need salvation and forgiveness, and to lovingly present the gospel - it is another to attack people for their sins, verbally or otherwise.

Homosexuals are a great example of a group of people that the modern church tends to outcast and condemn.

As an example, it would be wrong for me to go onto your college campus and tell people to repent of their sins and turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness?

That would depend upon the manner in which you presented the gospel. If your going around yelling at people that they are going to hell - then yes it would be wrong.

And then if they just mocked me, it would be especially bad for me to tell them that judgment day is going to be REALLY bad for them? Is that a good example of the wrong model you are referring to? (You seem to have experienced campus preachers).

Yes, that would be really bad. It's not effective in the least and only makes a mockery of Christianity.

 

[Lighthouse]

My view is that you shouldn't socially punish people for their sins - it is not our place to act as judges on non-Christians, not yet at any rate.

Should you punish your children if they lie? Let me guess, only after they've accepted Jesus as who He is. [Which you don't actually believe Him to be anyway.:dizzy:]

 

[csuguy]

Who said anything about the church? I'm talking about you as an individual. Do you have any right [from God] to speak on what the proper punishment for a crime should be?

I don't know about you - but I, as an individual, am part of the church. I do not consider myself an American, nor do I belong to any other country - I think of myself as part of the church, the body of Christ. In the world, but not of it.

I repeat, it is not my place to make people pay for their sins. I believe it is my responsibility to protect people should they need it - even to the point of killing an attacker if necessary - but it is not my responsibility, at this point in time, to dish out judgment.

 

[csuguy]

Should you punish your children if they lie? Let me guess, only after they've accepted Jesus as who He is. [Which you don't actually believe Him to be anyway.:dizzy:]

rebuking a child to make them learn is not the same as dealing out punishment for sins.

 

[Vine&FigTree]

As a Libertarian Party candidate for U.S. Congress, I make it a point to be "judgmental."

http://KevinCraig.US/judgment.htm

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't know about you - but I, as an individual, am part of the church. I do not consider myself an American, nor do I belong to any other country - I think of myself as part of the church, the body of Christ.

I repeat, it is not my place to make people pay for their sins. I believe it is my responsibility to protect people should they need it - even to the point of killing an attacker if necessary - but it is not my responsibility, at this point in time, to dish out judgment.

 

[csuguy]

I've been told that's a good tv series :think:

 

[Lighthouse]

rebuking a child to make them learn is not the same as dealing out punishment for sins.

And how many times do I have to tell you I'm not talking about sin? I'm talking about the act apart from the fact that it's a sin. No matter what any act that is wrong is a sin, period. But not every sin is one that deserves a punishment in the temporal. And even then not all the ones that do are on the same level. A child telling a fib is not a crime, but perjury is. So, should a child be punished for telling a lie? And should a criminal be punished for committing a crime? Regardless of the fact that both acts are sins.

 

[Lighthouse]

I've been told that's a good tv series :think:

In reality it's your life story.

 

[csuguy]

And how many times do I have to tell you I'm not talking about sin? I'm talking about the act apart from the fact that it's a sin. No matter what any act that is wrong is a sin, period. But not every sin is one that deserves a punishment in the temporal. And even then not all the ones that do are on the same level. A child telling a fib is not a crime, but perjury is. So, should a child be punished for telling a lie? And should a criminal be punished for committing a crime? Regardless of the fact that both acts are sins.

If your not talking about sin then you have deviated from the subject of the thread. Biblical judgment only deals with sin - you are deviating into pagan (or rather secular) courts, which the bible says to stay away from.

 

[csuguy]

In reality it's your life story.

I must be pretty famous then... where are my royalties!

 

[TeeJay]

Judge Not or Judge with Righteous Judgment?

Judge Not or Judge with Righteous Judgment?

Hello all, I'm new to TOL.

"Judge not," or "I'm not judgmental" are cliches that will get you a standing O on Oprah. This alone should let you know that these nonjudgmental cliches should be re-examined.

The only way a human can live on Planet Earth and not judge is be in a coma. Just as one cannot not use the laws of logic, one cannot not judge.

Jesus said in Luke 17 that "if your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and IF he repents forgive him. So, to first rebuke him, you must judge him to be a sinner against you. Then if he repents and asks your forgiveness, you must judge him to be repentant. To witness to him about Jesus Chrsit, you must first judge him to be unsaved. After you witness to him, you must judge whether or not he is saved. If you don't judge, you can't rebuke, forgive, or witness.

Non-judgmental souls are nicer than God and are self-righteous: Just look at me. "I am never judgmental." "I never judge anyone."
Then there are the hypocritical non-judgmentals: "I promise never to judge you if you promise never to judge me."

To protect yourself, your family, your neighbor, and your country, you must judge. I judge the homo child molester to be a threat to my sons and grandsons. I judge the man who would steal from me. If a 21 year old man shows up at my door dressed in black clothes, smells from not washing, has painted black fingernails, has tattoos, and has a ring in his nose, and he wants to date my 18 years old daughter, I had better judge.

No one wanted to be judgmental of the Arab shooter at Fort Hood; consequently, 13 are dead and more wounded. I say again, one cannot not judge. Either you judge the wicked or you judge the righteous who judge the wicked.

God bless, Tom in Mabank, TX