toldailytopic: Judging

[Nathon Detroit]

As has been correctly stated - I discerned it.

Discerning and judging are synonymous, even God agrees...

1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

 

[csuguy]

Discerning and judging are synonymous, even God agrees...

1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

Discerning is synonymous with judging in only one connotation of 'judge' - discerning has nothing to do with the other connotation of judging. If you go back and look at my previous post I differentiated between the two different connotations.

 

[yokefellow]

Sharing something out of love is not a bad thing even if the person being shared with doesn't believe their life is lacking.

However, IF that sharing includes telling someone they are wicked, calling names or making unsubstantiated accusations followed by telling them how much you will enjoy seeing them burn in hell, then the message will be taken as it is meant ... that hatred is the sole motivation behind *witnessing*.

I think in many cases it is more about how the message is delivered (in hate) rather than the actual message.

Yes, I agree, which I why I said be smart about how/when you choose to have this conversation. Name-calling, unsubstantiated accusations, etc. are not effective in any way other than pushing someone farther away. I recommend having some sort of already [positive] established relationship with someone before you start this conversation. Unfortunately, as some of you have mentioned, this isn't always the way people [Christians] go about things...

 

[elohiym]

You should discern that the child needs help and protect him. It is not a matter of judging the molestors sins that you act on - but the matter of the childs saftey and well being.

The situation calls for several judgments on your part. The evidence is a person molesting a child. You can rightly judge:

1. The person molesting a child is a child molester.

2. The molester is guilty of sin.

3. The molester is breaking the criminal code.

4. The molester needs to be stopped by you, using deadly force if necessary.

I have no idea in what way you think we shouldn't judge a child molester. :idunno: As I see it, you are just playing word games.

 

[elohiym]

Discerning is synonymous with judging in only one connotation of 'judge' - discerning has nothing to do with the other connotation of judging...

Nobody here is using the word in the context of being a judge in a courtroom, but even there it is the jury that is the trier of facts. It is the jury that pronounces guilt.

And your assertion that discerning has nothing to do with "the other connotation of judging" is absolutely ludicrous. Every connotation of judge involves discernment.

 

[The Berean]

It can't be that simple. That's too easy to understand. Did you look at the greek?

Why do we need to look at the Greek if we have Bible software now? :think:

 

[chickenman]

It is not the churches job to enforce criminal justice - the church should not be judging those outside the church.

Hi, csuguy.

You're basing your position on I Cor. 5:9-13. But in that passage, Paul isn't at all saying to not judge those outside the church. He writes to the audience that they need to disfellowship with the sexually immoral person in their church. They need to judge that person in that way. But they are not to judge people outside of the church in that way. For if they have no association with (keep no company with, 5:11) people outside of the church, then they could never walk out of their doors ("since then you would need to go out of the world").

So that passage can't be used to demonstrate that we shouldn't judge those outside the church.

Randy

 

[csuguy]

The situation calls for several judgments on your part. The evidence is a person molesting a child. You can rightly judge:

1. The person molesting a child is a child molester.

2. The molester is guilty of sin.

3. The molester is breaking the criminal code.

4. The molester needs to be stopped by you, using deadly force if necessary.

I have no idea in what way you think we shouldn't judge a child molester. :idunno: As I see it, you are just playing word games.

Actually, the only thing you need to discern is that someone is molesting a child - and that child needs your help. The molesters sin and the criminal code are secondary issues - and ones which are not the churches responsibility to sentence someone for.

 

[csuguy]

Nobody here is using the word in the context of being a judge in a courtroom, but even there it is the jury that is the trier of facts. It is the jury that pronounces guilt.

And your assertion that discerning has nothing to do with "the other connotation of judging" is absolutely ludicrous. Every connotation of judge involves discernment.

Actually, you are - hence you keep bringing up criminal law.

I like how you all have stopped referring to scripture - because it doesn't agree with you.

 

[csuguy]

Hi, csuguy.

You're basing your position on I Cor. 5:9-13. But in that passage, Paul isn't at all saying to not judge those outside the church. He writes to the audience that they need to disfellowship with the sexually immoral person in their church. They need to judge that person in that way. But they are not to judge people outside of the church in that way. For if they have no association with (keep no company with, 5:11) people outside of the church, then they could never walk out of their doors ("since then you would need to go out of the world").

So that passage can't be used to demonstrate that we shouldn't judge those outside the church.

Randy

That chapter is all about judging WITHIN the church, and not judging those outside the church. It has nothing to do with a certain way of judging, it says not to do it.

 

[minuteman]

I think it's more complicated then what you have stated above ... let me explain.

Judging is part of life. No matter how much people deny it, it is part of human nature and we ALL do it.

In regards to people judging "things like homosexuality, abortion, pornography, fornication, etc." it isn't a matter of judging so much as compared to the level it is judged at.

Things such as rape, abortion, child molestation, etc. ALWAYS victimize non consenting persons and are done with either malicious intent or in complete disregard for the human being they are victimizing. The results of these are ALWAYS devastating to the victim and the intent is always malicious.

While I do believe that pornography or fornication are all unsavory , IMO, they do not rise to the same level as the other actions because people who willingly consent are not victims.

Also, as far as the likes of Michael Jackson, George Tiller, Roman Polanski, etc., they certainly do NOT get a free pass as far as I am concerned.

I think you misunderstand the nature of sin. Most sin is NOT malicious.

Abortion
Women don't get abortions because they love ripping the arms and legs off of little children. They do it because they want freedom from the responsibility of caring for a child, and they don't care if that means blood must be shed.

Sexual Predators
Most sex predators don't get pleasure from the lifelong pain and agony they put their victims through. They just want sex now and don't care who gets hurt in the process.

The "victimless sins" idea is used as a way to lessen the guilt or remove it completely. Sins are only sins because they hurt other people. If they didn't hurt others they wouldn't be sinful (someone correct me if you think I'm mistaken).

Fornication and pornography hurt others, but they are not as evident as rape and murder. You have to actually think for 2 or 3 more seconds to realize how those 2 things hurt others.

 

[Lighthouse]

Christ didn't go around condemning people as sinners to preach the gospel. Rather, the sinners were the ones whom he spent time with, helped and fed, the ones he ate with. He witnessed to them by first providing for their needs and then teaching them.

You don't have to pretend that non-Christians are not sinners - to the contrary all are sinners - but that doesn't mean you need to start picking a non-Christian apart for his/her specific sins. It is not our job, and is counter-productive.

So the Pharisees weren't sinners?

 

[minuteman]

Yes, I agree, which I why I said be smart about how/when you choose to have this conversation. Name-calling, unsubstantiated accusations, etc. are not effective in any way other than pushing someone farther away. I recommend having some sort of already [positive] established relationship with someone before you start this conversation. Unfortunately, as some of you have mentioned, this isn't always the way people [Christians] go about things...

It may be more effective to have a relationship with someone before you talk to them about their sin. But, Jesus Christ, the example for Christians, mostly talked about sin to people he didn't have a relationship with.

 

[Delmar]

We are to judge those within the church and those without the church, just by different standards. Those within the church are claiming to be in Christ, and are held to higher standard.

Look, do you or do you not think we should judge child molesters, murderers, adulterers and thieves, whether they are within the church or not? It's that simple.

:up:

 

[elohiym]

Actually, the only thing you need to discern is that someone is molesting a child - and that child needs your help.

Word games. You are judging that someone is violating a moral code when you discern he is molesting a child.

The molesters sin and the criminal code are secondary issues - and ones which are not the churches responsibility to sentence someone for.

Judging and sentencing are not synonyms. We're not discussing sentencing, but judging. Nevertheless, it is incumbent on citizens and Christians to intervene to protect the innocent based on their judgment.

 

[yankeedoodled]

yankeedoodled:
The Lord and His people have been judging the ungodly for a long time. Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah and the boat, the Egyptians enslaving Israel.
God and His people have been judging the wicked/heathens since the nigh beginning and the wicked respond with how wrong it is to judg them. Never mind they will judge you harshly and unfairly. As has been seen even here.

1Co 6:2 - Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 6:3 - Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[Servo]

I just told you - everyone needs to hear the gospel, for we are all in need of salvation.

Why would someone be open to hearing the gospel if they don't know that they are a sinner in need of a Savior? Would you be willing to tell a non-Christian that they are a sinner in need of a Savior?

 

[chickenman]

That chapter is all about judging WITHIN the church, and not judging those outside the church. It has nothing to do with a certain way of judging, it says not to do it.

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, oridolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." I Cor. 5:9-13
​

Don't keep company with the immoral people in your church. Kick them out of your fellowship. Don't judge people outside your church this way, though. If you do, then you'll have to go out of the world entirely.

It's all about a specific action: excommunication / disfellowship / separation.

 

[csuguy]

Why would someone be open to hearing the gospel if they don't know that they are a sinner in need of a Savior? Would you be willing to tell a non-Christian that they are a sinner in need of a Savior?

I've already addressed this like 2 or 3 times... go back and read my posts.

 

[csuguy]

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, oridolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." I Cor. 5:9-13
​

Don't keep company with the immoral people in your church. Kick them out of your fellowship. Don't judge people outside your church this way, though. If you do, then you'll have to go out of the world entirely.

It's all about a specific action: excommunication / disfellowship / separation.

There is no "THIS WAY" in scripture - you are adding to it to. Exegesis vs eisegeses.