toldailytopic: If you are saved, yet you stumble (and sin) are you still saved?

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SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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godrulz said:
Read how Jesus dealt with Peter after his denial. Do you love me, etc. etc.?

The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts and convinces people, not STP and Nick and Butterfly (unholy trinity?). The Word and Spirit are not guilting me with vague accusations. His conviction is personal and specific. The accuser of the brethren, Satan and you guys, try to guilt others who don't share your myopic views. By judging others, you fail to see the need for grace in your own life. Your perfectionist views might ease your conscience, but they leave us in the same boat.

The disciples did not obey and love Jesus perfectly. This does not mean that they were to ignore His imperatives and exhortations. Paul also gave imperatives and exhortations that were followed imperfectly by the Church. He lovingly dealt with people to edify, rebuke, exhort, etc.

All you are doing is falsely accusing those who take the Word seriously. Why are you not as blatantly arguing for the logical consequence of your view (rank disobedience, rank sin, grace as a license to sin, rebellion, etc.)?!
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John 14
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18: I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19: Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
 
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godrulz

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Amen. As a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ I accept His universal principles and truths that He taught to all believers of all generations. I do not just follow Paul (like you), but I follow the Jesus that Paul followed. Paul's teaching was based on the teaching of Jesus (that you seem to want to dispensationalize away). Jesus linked faith, love, obedience, but you divorce them (despite the Pauline verses that show the same connection).:sheep:
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
Luke 6:46 (KJV)

Why don't you love the Lord?
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Jesus said to love the Father, feed the poor, preach and teach His gospel, to not worship idols, to pray, etc.

Despite loving the Lord imperfectly, believers do these things by His power and for His glory.

Why are you playing accuser of the brethren? Trying to justify your own disobedience?
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
He also said to keep his commandments. Why don't you?
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The real question is why you don't since I am not actively trying to disobey and dishonor Him. Like Pastor Paul and Master Jesus, we encourage people to love and obey Him. Like Satan, you encourage the opposite?
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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godrulz said:
The real question is why you don't
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Because I am a miserable rotten sinner saved by the grace of God. I don't pretend to be baptized with the Holy Spirit which enables men to walk in his statutes and do them.

Ezekiel 36
27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I am trying to provoke you into some form of honesty about yourself.
 
Non-Excluvistic

Non-Excluvistic

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godrulz said:
The real question is why you don't since I am not actively trying to disobey and dishonor Him. Like Pastor Paul and Master Jesus, we encourage people to love and obey Him. Like Satan, you encourage the opposite?
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So, you place yourself on the same level of Paul and Jesus by saying "we."

Hmmmm. Where is the humility?
 
Nick M

Nick M

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godrulz said:
Just because my children disobey me does not mean they are spawn of Satan. Heb. 12 talks about believers who disobey and are disciplined. They are still children of God, not children of Satan.
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Nobody implied they are. We imply you are.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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godrulz said:
Jesus said to love the Father, feed the poor, preach and teach His gospel, to not worship idols, to pray, etc.
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Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
Because I am a miserable rotten sinner saved by the grace of God. I don't pretend to be baptized with the Holy Spirit which enables men to walk in his statutes and do them.

Ezekiel 36
27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I am trying to provoke you into some form of honesty about yourself.
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I am in the same boat as you are and am not pretending to be Paul or Jesus. He does not save us to remain a miserable rotten sinner. He has bigger things for His people.

I find it odd you would think Jewish Christians would have more than we do in light of 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'.

You have the ability/responsibility to not fornicate or adulterate. You have the ability to seek out the lost and share the gospel with them. This is obeying His commands. He does NOT command that which you cannot obey. Pre-cross disciples were told to wait for power. This came at Pentecost. Post-cross believers have His Spirit (even non-Pentecostal ones). He transforms us from glory to glory as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Just because you and I have weakness and failings is no reason to shun the imperatives/exhortations in the Word. Rom. 12:1-2 is for Pauline believers. I believe it in principle even if I have areas of weakness or disobedience (volitional, not constitutional). I Thess. 4:1-10 is not optional, but doable. You respect Paul even more than Jesus it seems, so listen to inspired Paul if you will not believe Jesus (Rom. 6:13-16; Rom. 6-8). The degree of the Godward/manward, cooperative, passive elements in sanctification is debatable. Not worshipping idols or being immoral is not. He does not command what He does not empower us to obey.
 
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godrulz

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Non-Excluvistic said:
So, you place yourself on the same level of Paul and Jesus by saying "we."

Hmmmm. Where is the humility?
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No. If Paul and Jesus say to love God it is not making myself equal to them by saying and believing the same vital truth.

Jesus is Almighty God in the flesh. I worship Him. It is crazy to think that I would make myself equal to Him in any way.
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
Why are you still a rotten sinner after being saved for 32 years?
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I am not a godless sinner, but a saint who sometimes sins. One is outside of Christ/grace, while believers are in Christ/grace (but that does not make us sinlessly perfect in every thought, word, deed).

Rom. 6-8 gives principles for victory over sin, but I John reminds us we are not sinlessly perfect in ourselves.
 
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