toldailytopic: How do you balance your sense of patriotism with your disgust for what

[Son of Jack]

And advanced the greater good, if incrementally, setting the stage for the next attempt...but we have a new mechanism in play, a means to peaceful revolution and reinvention. I don't think history quite knows what to do with that.

Of course, I think that it, the experiment, has been mostly good until recently. That said, I'll be interested to see whether or not that mechanism will be able to hold in the future. It seems to me that the mechanism is reliant upon a population that, at least subconsciously, has a Judeo-Christian worldview. If that's not the background music, and naturalistic secularism is, then I fear what the future brings.

"All things fall apart. The centre cannot hold." - Eliot

Invictus.

I think I know what you mean.:noid:

Sure. And He seemed remarkably invested in how we treat one another. So I'd say our investment in advancing the good, for as long as we can up to and including the indefinite is on message, no?

:e4e:

Sure he does. The government is nothing more than a tool, an instrument. If it helps to advance the good, all the better. If not, it can't inhibit me from doing what I can to advance that same good myself.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I simply separate them. I love my country. I hate my government (I wouldn't mind it so much if it actually lived up to its ideals).

 

[chrysostom]

I would hope that people could put their own person perferences aside for what's best for everyone.

.

how would we know what is best for you?

 

[PureX]

I love people, and as that stands I love this nation of people. I want what's best for them. I do not see the government of this United States as being the best for them, not even the idea of the US, as many of its ideals are faulty foundations which have led us to where we are, and sadly many of the founding fathers knew this could happen and did nothing to change the foundation which they set.

Love does not naturally express itself as a desire to control. To claim that you love people, and then claim that you want to control them "for their own good" is to not know what love is.

Also, to make the claim that you only want what's best for them, is to be somewhat disingenuous as you're placing yourself above others, and in the position of being their judge. But no one has given you this authority, and in truth you don't know any more about life and how to live it than anyone else does.

One should to learn how to be humble, and to respect other people and their right to think and choose for themselves, before claiming to love them. Love is not expressed as arrogance and the presumption of superiority. To call these motivations "love" is simply dishonest.

 

[PureX]

how would we know what is best for you?

We don't, which is why we should respect other people's right to decide for themselves.

 

[Granite]

The sooner we realize that our free ride is over, the better.

The dream is over, folks. We deserve everything we've gotten and everything we're going to get. I wonder sometimes if those who consider themselves true "patriots" are defending the idea of a country that never even existed.

 

[Frank Ernest]

This is a topic I struggle with. I still love my country and I still believe it's the greatest country on earth but.... I'm sickened to see it fall apart.

Falling apart? I view it as more being driven apart.

Abortion, socialism, homosexual rights etc. all make me sick to my stomach and I hate the fact that we have strayed so far from where we started. Yet I still love my country and feel like there is hope in saving it.

I have you down in the Patriot Column.

How do you balance your sense of patriotism with your frustration regarding the demise of this great nation?

As MrDeets said, there is no balance. I do not accept that the "demise of this great nation" is a given.

 

[genuineoriginal]

This is a topic I struggle with. I still love my country and I still believe it's the greatest country on earth but.... I'm sickened to see it fall apart.

Abortion, socialism, homosexual rights etc. all make me sick to my stomach and I hate the fact that we have strayed so far from where we started. Yet I still love my country and feel like there is hope in saving it.

How do you balance your sense of patriotism with your frustration regarding the demise of this great nation?

Paul lived in Rome, which was the greatest country on earth that he knew of, but he wasn't patriotic towards Rome. Paul was a Jew, and he was patriotic towards the Jews, but only in the respect of wanting them all to be saved, not in supporting them against the Romans.

As Christians, we have a different citizenship. Our patriotism is best directed towards that other citizenship instead of towards the United States.

 

[PureX]

Paul lived in Rome, which was the greatest country on earth that he knew of, but he wasn't patriotic towards Rome. Paul was a Jew, and he was patriotic towards the Jews, but only in the respect of wanting them all to be saved, not in supporting them against the Romans.

As Christians, we have a different citizenship. Our patriotism is best directed towards that other citizenship instead of towards the United States.

I disagree. Jesus said, "as you do unto even the least among you, you do unto me". The idea that you can align yourself with God while ignoring your fellow citizens presumes there is a difference, when there is none. Your love of God should be reflected in your love of country, because the country is it's people. And as you do unto each of those people, you are doing to God.

If you claim to love God, then love your neighbor. If you claim to serve God, then serve your neighbor. If you claim to respect God, then respect your neighbor. If you claim to obey God, then obey the will of your neighbors as it is being expressed through their chosen government.

 

[The Horn]

Knight, "abortion, homosexual rights and socialism" in America make you sick?
And you really think that making abortion illegal would stop women from having abortions? LOL !!!!!! This would only make abortion much more dangerous.
And even if poor women did not have them, how would they provide for their children? This would only increase poverty,unemployment and crime in America. They wouldn't get any government help to provide for their poor kids.
Your sick about homosexual rights ? So what do you want the government top do, take all their rights away and treat them the way the Nazis treated the Jews?
I'm sure there were lots of Germans in the 1930s who were "sick" about Jewish rights.
Socialism in America ? Ha ! We don't have socialism at all.We never have.
Right-wingers like you don't even know what socialism is. You stupidly confuse the existence of a safety net for the unfortunate in America for "socialism".
Now let's see what an America which didn't make you sick would be like.
Poor women would be dying left and right from botched illegal abortions.
Many children who were already born would be left without mothers
Because of a lack of "socialism" poverty and unemployment would increase enormously, and millions of Americans would be without work and homes, completely helpless. There would be no help for them whatsoever.
Maybe a few soup kitchens, but that wouldn't even come remotely close to providing the help people needed.
Gay people would live inf ear of being outed, and blackmail would be common.Teacher sand other people would lose their jobs.
The police would constantly be on the look out for harmless gays instead of fighting REAL criminals. We would return the the past,when homosexuals were routinely sent to mental hospitals and subject to brutal shock therapy to "cure " them, Some would even be lobotomized .
Sheesh ! I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want t live in an Americ alike this.
I'll stay sickened.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I disagree. Jesus said, "as you do unto even the least among you, you do unto me". The idea that you can align yourself with God while ignoring your fellow citizens presumes there is a difference, when there is none. Your love of God should be reflected in your love of country, because the country is it's people. And as you do unto each of those people, you are doing to God.

If you claim to love God, then love your neighbor. If you claim to serve God, then serve your neighbor. If you claim to respect God, then respect your neighbor. If you claim to obey God, then obey the will of your neighbors as it is being expressed through their chosen government.

I never said anything about ignoring my neighbor, you read that into what I said.
Here is what I believe about what we should do for our neighbors:

Leviticus 19:17-18 17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​

Here is what Paul said about how to deal with a country and the people in it:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

The "fellow citizens" and the "people" you mention are the "flesh and blood" people Paul was talking about.
The "country" and "government" you mention are the "principalities" and "powers" Paul was talking about.

Paul said we are to be opposed to the "rulers of the darkness" of the United States and against "spiritual wickedness" in the Courts, Congress, and the White House.

 

[heir]

toldailytopic: How do you balance your sense of patriotism with your disgust for what's going on in this country?

pray- 1 Timothy 2:1-4 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Recognize that we are not called to be change agents entangling ourselves in the affairs of this life (but good soldiers 2 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV) where evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived (2 Timothy 3:13 KJV) for the mystery of iniquity doth already work (2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV).

Rather, we are ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20 KJV) given the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV) to call a people out (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV) of this present evil world (Galatians 1:4 KJV) who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; how that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and be saved from the wrath to come (Romans 5:9 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV).

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2 Timothy 1:8 KJV Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2 Timothy 4:2 KJV Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

If you claim to love God, then love your neighbor. If you claim to serve God, then serve your neighbor. If you claim to respect God, then respect your neighbor. If you claim to obey God, then obey the will of your neighbors as it is being expressed through their chosen government.

What if your country gets to being run by an unrighteous dictator who is supported by most all of the populous, and ends up being just another like Hitler?

Should the Christian support abortion and same sex marriage if the majority of people vote a government in which supports it?

2Ch 12:1 And it happened when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had made himself strong, he departed from the Law of Jehovah, and all Israel with him.

read on.

LA.

 

[PureX]

What if your country gets to being run by an unrighteous dictator who is supported by most all of the populous, and ends up being just another like Hitler?

How does this change Christ's mandate?

Should the Christian support abortion and same sex marriage if the majority of people vote a government in which supports it?

Being a Christian doesn't mean forcing everyone else to be a Christian. Jesus said, "as you do to even the least among you, you do unto me". That means as you do to even the sinners around you (and who isn't a sinner?), you do unto Him.

Hey, I didn't say it was easy!

 

[PureX]

I never said anything about ignoring my neighbor, you read that into what I said.

I apologize.

Here is what I believe about what we should do for our neighbors:

Leviticus 19:17-18 17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​

Indeed! Unfortunately, it's a lot easier and more fun to rebuke than to love and forgive.

Here is what Paul said about how to deal with a country and the people in it:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

The "fellow citizens" and the "people" you mention are the "flesh and blood" people Paul was talking about.
The "country" and "government" you mention are the "principalities" and "powers" Paul was talking about.

Paul said we are to be opposed to the "rulers of the darkness" of the United States and against "spiritual wickedness" in the Courts, Congress, and the White House.

Well, all I know is that when people become, or imagine themselves to be the "rulers" of anything or anyone, corruption and abuse will soon result.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Well, all I know is that when people become, or imagine themselves to be the "rulers" of anything or anyone, corruption and abuse will soon result.

I agree. That is why I took offense to that statement you made.

If you claim to obey God, then obey the will of your neighbors as it is being expressed through their chosen government.

If I claim to obey God, then I must obey His commandments regarding my neighbors despite any chosen government that is the expression of their corrupt and abusive desires.

 

[PureX]

I agree. That is why I took offense to that statement you made.

If I claim to obey God, then I must obey His commandments regarding my neighbors despite any chosen government that is the expression of their corrupt and abusive desires.

YOU must obey them. So obey them. Jesus said nothing about making everyone else obey them. When Jesus was confronted with the sin of his society, he accepted it, and forgave them saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". What Jesus didn't say was; "Father, help me become president so that I can stack the courts with like-minded Christians, who will then force everyone else to obey our religious edicts".

 

[some other dude]

Which particular religious edicts do you fear?

 

[Buzzword]

The sooner we realize that our free ride is over, the better.

The dream is over, folks. We deserve everything we've gotten and everything we're going to get. I wonder sometimes if those who consider themselves true "patriots" are defending the idea of a country that never even existed.

Agreed.

Reminds me of this little ditty from way back when:

All In The Family

Every generation pines for the glorious past as it reaches adulthood because they saw those years through a child's eyes.

For example:
My generation remembers the 90s as being a time of better TV shows for kids (viewing the current crop as inane at best), better or at least more artistically driven rap music (cop killer > "you and dat booty"), meteoric technological growth (it seems to be gradually coasting now), etc.
But we weren't adults during Desert Storm, the bombings of Kosovo, or any of the economic ups and downs of that decade.

Similar to older folks pining for Leave It To Beaver.

"Rose-colored goggles" doesn't even begin to describe how most people look back, all the while demonizing efforts to move forward.

 

[kmoney]

My patriotism began to fail when I started to see how manipulative and self-serving we are in our relations with other countries. It gets pushed further when I see how pathetic most of our politicians are and how shallow most political dialogue is, both in our government and the media. And then I realize the problem starts with me and it gets even worse.


Some people have touched on this issue and I wanted to bring it up. For those who are Christians.....do you see any conflict between patriotism and Christianity?