toldailytopic: Hell, what is it really like?

[Aimiel]

Every soul sent to hell from Sodom is still burning, and will be for eternity.

 

[Krsto]

Well sometimes it's hard to define where people are coming from so if you're up for further debate then :thumb: Regardless of the energy of the aforementioned 'horse' what is it that leads you to believe that annihilation is taught overall? Does it solely apply to unbelievers? Explain.

For starters:

What Does “Eternal” Mean?
Eternal Judgment
krˆímatos aioœnˆíou
Heb 6:2 “of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
The period of judging or judgment is limited in duration, but the verdict will never be reversed, so the judgment is eternal.

Eternal Redemption
aioœnˆían luítroœsin
Heb 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all having obtained eternal redemption.”
Jesus redeemed us “once for all,” but the effect of that redemption is eternal.

Eternal Salvation
soœteœrias aioœnˆíou
Heb 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Jesus saved us by a “once for all” act, called salvation, but the effect of that salvation is eternal.

Eternal Sin
aioœnˆíou hamarteœmatos
Mark 3:29 “but He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”
The sin occurs during a finite lifetime, but its effect is eternal.

Eternal Destruction
oílethron aioœnion
2 Thes 1:9 “These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”
Destroyed once, but the effect of that destruction is eternal.

Eternal Punishment
koílasin aioœnion / zoœeìn aioœnion
Matt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Resurrection to life happens “in a twinkling of an eye,” but the effect is eternal.
Execution is an event completed only by death, and it has not occurred unless death results, but it is an eternal punishment because it is irreversible.

What Do the “Worms and Fire” Verses Mean?
Mark 9:44, 46, 48 “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
Citing: Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses [peger; corpse/carcass] of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
1) One is not a corpse until one is dead. 2) Maggots eat only dead flesh, but fire kills maggots. 3) Thus, this is a mixed metaphor, and literal fulfillment is impossible. 4) But, the metaphors point to an irreversible process of destruction following death.

What Does It Mean to “Die”?
Gen. 7:21–23 And all flesh died [apeíthane] that moved on the earth: . . .”
John 11:26 “‘And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [apothaéneœ]. Do you believe this?’”
Logically, thus, those who do not believe will die at some time, becoming like those who died in the Flood.

What Does “Devoured” Mean?
2 Kings 1:12 “And fire of God came down from heaven and consumed [wattoœ}kal / kateéphagen] him and his fifty.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujto\n]
Rev 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured [kateéphagen] them.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujtou/ß.]
If in Elijah’s day God literally kills the wicked with fire from heaven, and if John then quotes this phrase exactly to indicate what he has seen in vision about the fate of the wicked, how can we say they will not be devoured to death?
*From }aœkal, to “eat up” or “consume.”

Isa 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured [eédetai, eaten] the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”
Isa 26:11 “. . . Yes, the fire of Your enemies [hupenantˆíous] shall devour [eédetai, eaten] them.”
Heb 10:27 “. . . but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour [esthˆíein, eat up]the adversaries [hupenantˆíous].”
What has been devoured or eaten up exists no longer. What has been devoured by fire can no longer be alive. Esthioœ and edoœ usually refer to eating food, and they are often used metaphorically, but they are not metaphors of something not being eaten but remaining eternally uneaten.

What Does “Perish” Mean?
Matt 22:7 “‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed [apoœlesen] those murderers, and burned up their city.’”
Matt 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish [apolountai] by the sword.’” [“Perish” here means death, not some continuing flaying with a sword throughout eternity.]
Luke 11:51 “‘from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished [apolomeénou] between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.’” [Was Zechariah still perishing in Jesus’ day, or had he completed the process implied in the word and perished, as the text says?]

Luke 13:3, 5 “‘I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish [apoleˆísthe].’” [If the process of perishing cannot be completed, then Jesus is wrong about this.]
John 3:16 “‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish [apoéleœtai] but have everlasting life.’” [If those who believe do not perish, then those who do not believe logically must perish. But if the wicked suffer everlasting torment in Hell, then they don’t perish, and they also receive everlasting life. Thus, both the righteous and the wicked receive everlasting life—the difference is only in the nature of that life. If this were so, then Jesus would be wrong here.]

2 Pet 3:6 “by which the world that then existed perished [apoœleto], being flooded with water.” [That world died, along with the people in it, except for Noah and family.]
2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish [apoleésthai] but that all should come to repentance.” [Those do not repent perish. If they cannot die, they cannot perish.]
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death [thanatos], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [The wages are not eternal suffering, but death.]

What Does “Destroyed” Mean?
Luke 17:29 “‘but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [apoœlesen] them all.’”
Matt 10:29 “‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy [apoleésai] both soul and body in hell.’”
If they live on in eternal torment, they have not been destroyed.

What Is “Eternal Fire”?
Gen 19:24–29 “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, . . . And Abraham . . . looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. . . . God destroyed the cities of the plain, . . . He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.”
Jude 7 “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example [deigma, a specimen], suffering the vengeance of eternal fire [puroìs aioœnˆíou].”
2 Pet 2:6 “and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, . . .”

How Long Does “Stubble” Burn?
Exod 15:7 [Against Egypt] “‘You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.’”
Obadiah 16, 18 [Against Edom] “‘And they shall be as though they had never been. . . . The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they shall kindle them and devour them, and no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,’ for the LORD has spoken.”
Isa 47:14 [Against Babylon] “‘Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them.’”
Nahum 1:9–10 [Day of the Lord] “Affliction will not rise up a second time. For while tangled like thorns, and while drunken like drunkards, they shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.”

What Are “Ashes”?
Mal 4:1, 3 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ Says the LORD of hosts.”

What Does “Slay” Mean?
Isa 65:15 [Day of the Lord] “‘For the Lord GOD will slay you.’”
Isa 66:15–16 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.’”
Isa 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’”
If they have been slain by the fire of God, they cannot still be alive. They are corpses.

What Does “End” Mean?
Zeph 1:18 [Day of the Lord] “‘Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance [NIV, “a sudden end”] of all those who dwell in the land.’”
Matt 13:40 “‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.’”

What Does It Mean to “Cease to Be”?
Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’” [Some think this is speaking covertly of Satan.]

 

[Krsto]

Every soul sent to hell from Sodom is still burning, and will be for eternity.

Chapter & verse please.

 

[Aimiel]

Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’”

:duh:

 

[Arthur Brain]

For starters:

What Does “Eternal” Mean?
Eternal Judgment
krˆímatos aioœnˆíou
Heb 6:2 “of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
The period of judging or judgment is limited in duration, but the verdict will never be reversed, so the judgment is eternal.

Eternal Redemption
aioœnˆían luítroœsin
Heb 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all having obtained eternal redemption.”
Jesus redeemed us “once for all,” but the effect of that redemption is eternal.

Eternal Salvation
soœteœrias aioœnˆíou
Heb 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Jesus saved us by a “once for all” act, called salvation, but the effect of that salvation is eternal.

Eternal Sin
aioœnˆíou hamarteœmatos
Mark 3:29 “but He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”
The sin occurs during a finite lifetime, but its effect is eternal.

Eternal Destruction
oílethron aioœnion
2 Thes 1:9 “These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”
Destroyed once, but the effect of that destruction is eternal.

Eternal Punishment
koílasin aioœnion / zoœeìn aioœnion
Matt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Resurrection to life happens “in a twinkling of an eye,” but the effect is eternal.
Execution is an event completed only by death, and it has not occurred unless death results, but it is an eternal punishment because it is irreversible.

What Do the “Worms and Fire” Verses Mean?
Mark 9:44, 46, 48 “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
Citing: Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses [peger; corpse/carcass] of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
1) One is not a corpse until one is dead. 2) Maggots eat only dead flesh, but fire kills maggots. 3) Thus, this is a mixed metaphor, and literal fulfillment is impossible. 4) But, the metaphors point to an irreversible process of destruction following death.

What Does It Mean to “Die”?
Gen. 7:21–23 And all flesh died [apeíthane] that moved on the earth: . . .”
John 11:26 “‘And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [apothaéneœ]. Do you believe this?’”
Logically, thus, those who do not believe will die at some time, becoming like those who died in the Flood.

What Does “Devoured” Mean?
2 Kings 1:12 “And fire of God came down from heaven and consumed [wattoœ}kal / kateéphagen] him and his fifty.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujto\n]
Rev 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured [kateéphagen] them.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujtou/ß.]
If in Elijah’s day God literally kills the wicked with fire from heaven, and if John then quotes this phrase exactly to indicate what he has seen in vision about the fate of the wicked, how can we say they will not be devoured to death?
*From }aœkal, to “eat up” or “consume.”

Isa 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured [eédetai, eaten] the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”
Isa 26:11 “. . . Yes, the fire of Your enemies [hupenantˆíous] shall devour [eédetai, eaten] them.”
Heb 10:27 “. . . but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour [esthˆíein, eat up]the adversaries [hupenantˆíous].”
What has been devoured or eaten up exists no longer. What has been devoured by fire can no longer be alive. Esthioœ and edoœ usually refer to eating food, and they are often used metaphorically, but they are not metaphors of something not being eaten but remaining eternally uneaten.

What Does “Perish” Mean?
Matt 22:7 “‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed [apoœlesen] those murderers, and burned up their city.’”
Matt 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish [apolountai] by the sword.’” [“Perish” here means death, not some continuing flaying with a sword throughout eternity.]
Luke 11:51 “‘from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished [apolomeénou] between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.’” [Was Zechariah still perishing in Jesus’ day, or had he completed the process implied in the word and perished, as the text says?]

Luke 13:3, 5 “‘I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish [apoleˆísthe].’” [If the process of perishing cannot be completed, then Jesus is wrong about this.]
John 3:16 “‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish [apoéleœtai] but have everlasting life.’” [If those who believe do not perish, then those who do not believe logically must perish. But if the wicked suffer everlasting torment in Hell, then they don’t perish, and they also receive everlasting life. Thus, both the righteous and the wicked receive everlasting life—the difference is only in the nature of that life. If this were so, then Jesus would be wrong here.]

2 Pet 3:6 “by which the world that then existed perished [apoœleto], being flooded with water.” [That world died, along with the people in it, except for Noah and family.]
2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish [apoleésthai] but that all should come to repentance.” [Those do not repent perish. If they cannot die, they cannot perish.]
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death [thanatos], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [The wages are not eternal suffering, but death.]

What Does “Destroyed” Mean?
Luke 17:29 “‘but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [apoœlesen] them all.’”
Matt 10:29 “‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy [apoleésai] both soul and body in hell.’”
If they live on in eternal torment, they have not been destroyed.

What Is “Eternal Fire”?
Gen 19:24–29 “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, . . . And Abraham . . . looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. . . . God destroyed the cities of the plain, . . . He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.”
Jude 7 “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example [deigma, a specimen], suffering the vengeance of eternal fire [puroìs aioœnˆíou].”
2 Pet 2:6 “and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, . . .”

How Long Does “Stubble” Burn?
Exod 15:7 [Against Egypt] “‘You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.’”
Obadiah 16, 18 [Against Edom] “‘And they shall be as though they had never been. . . . The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they shall kindle them and devour them, and no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,’ for the LORD has spoken.”
Isa 47:14 [Against Babylon] “‘Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them.’”
Nahum 1:9–10 [Day of the Lord] “Affliction will not rise up a second time. For while tangled like thorns, and while drunken like drunkards, they shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.”

What Are “Ashes”?
Mal 4:1, 3 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ Says the LORD of hosts.”

What Does “Slay” Mean?
Isa 65:15 [Day of the Lord] “‘For the Lord GOD will slay you.’”
Isa 66:15–16 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.’”
Isa 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’”
If they have been slain by the fire of God, they cannot still be alive. They are corpses.

What Does “End” Mean?
Zeph 1:18 [Day of the Lord] “‘Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance [NIV, “a sudden end”] of all those who dwell in the land.’”
Matt 13:40 “‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.’”

What Does It Mean to “Cease to Be”?
Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’” [Some think this is speaking covertly of Satan.]

Thanks for the response. The problem (well, one of the problems) I find with annihilation is that we're all subject to death. The grave awaits the believer and non believer alike. Do you believe that there's no such thing as resurrection for the unbeliever? That physical death is simply it or are they actually resurrected in order to be judged and then destroyed?

 

[Krsto]

Thanks for the response. The problem (well, one of the problems) I find with annihilation is that we're all subject to death. The grave awaits the believer and non believer alike. Do you believe that there's no such thing as resurrection for the unbeliever? That physical death is simply it or are they actually resurrected in order to be judged and then destroyed?

Death as I see it is the general end for the unsaved while the saved have been granted eternal life. The unsaved will have a finite period of life between their resurrection and judgement and the subsequent carrying out of their guilty verdict but of course this is not eternal life.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Death as I see it is the general end for the unsaved while the saved have been granted eternal life. The unsaved will have a finite period of life between their resurrection and judgement and the subsequent carrying out of their guilty verdict but of course this is not eternal life.

Is this all based on having belief in this one existence? Those who 'die' are resurrected to be found guilty of unbelief and then killed for *good* afterwards? Or is there more to it?

 

[Aimiel]

I just love reading Battle Royale XII:

Things that are irrefutable Biblical facts and were shown to be so in this debate:

1.Believers will live for all eternity in Heaven.
2. Heaven and the Lake of Fire are both eternal destinations.
3. Unbelievers will spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire.
4. There is not one verse in the Bible that clearly shows that they get out of the Lake of Fire
5. God loves all men and sent His Son, Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary.
6. Not everyone will accept the message. To God all those who DO accept the message were worth the sacrifice of His Son!
7. A person who is not born again cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
8. Jesus said the fire in the Lake of Fire is never quenched. This is a fact.
9. There is not one verse in the Bible that shows that Jesus was wrong and the fire is quenched.
10. There is no hope of redemption for fallen angels and Satan. The Bible does not contain one verse that supports such a wild claim. The Bible clearly says that Christ was sacrificed for men and not for angels.
11. There is no Scriptural evidence of angels having their sins paid for, repenting of their sins, or spending eternity in Heaven after a period of “ages” as Universalism claims.
12. There is no Scriptural evidence of people being allowed to repent of their sins after death. The Bible makes it clear that God’s judgments are just as eternal as He is.
13. There is no Scriptural evidence that people are saved after they die.
14. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are never in Scripture shown to have their names written BACK into the Book of Life at any point!
15. The Bible says that those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. There is not one single verse that shows they ever get out.
16. He who believes in Jesus Christ has everlasting life. He who does not believe is condemned.
17. Without repentance, we cannot have our sins blotted out!

SOURCE THREAD

 

[Granite]

:duh:

That passage doesn't really back up your claim. At all.

What about the children and infants (born and unborn) who perished in the cities?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I just love reading Battle Royale XII:



SOURCE THREAD

Yup. I think Logos X did a spot on job of dismantling this hideous doctrine. :thumb:

 

[Arthur Brain]

That passage doesn't really back up your claim. At all.

What about the children and infants (born and unborn) who perished in the cities?

Good point.

 

[Krsto]

I just love reading Battle Royale XII:



SOURCE THREAD

Notice nothing in Pastor Kevin's conclusions that address what happens when one is tossed into the incinerator, err, I mean Lake of Fire.

A great portion of theology is asking the right questions and a good one with this topic is: Because a lake has eternal fire does that mean those tossed into it burn consciously for ever or are they simply burned up in this eternal fire?

 

[Aimiel]

Because a lake has eternal fire does that mean those tossed into it burn consciously for ever or are they simply burned up in this eternal fire?

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You can't have smoke from torment rising for eternity without torment taking place. I'd say they're being tormented consciously.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You can't have smoke from torment rising for eternity without torment taking place. I'd say they're being tormented consciously.

Um. So you think that the fire is literal then? Is *death* being tormented day and night forever? Are there still literal 'days and nights' in the beyond? Have you heard of metaphor?

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Notice nothing in Pastor Kevin's conclusions that address what happens when one is tossed into the incinerator, err, I mean Lake of Fire.

A great portion of theology is asking the right questions and a good one with this topic is: Because a lake has eternal fire does that mean those tossed into it burn consciously for ever or are they simply burned up in this eternal fire?

Does that mean that you see the lake of fire as literal as well? :squint:

 

[Krsto]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You can't have smoke from torment rising for eternity without torment taking place. I'd say they're being tormented consciously.

Yeah, on earth while they are still alive. Revelation is symbolic of spiritual realities. How you view these verses depends entirely on your eschatology which will depend in large part on your hermeneutics. If you want to tell thinking people, Christian or otherwise, that have a difficult time reconciling the idea of love and justice with eternal torment that they should base their belief on your interpretation of Rev. 14:11 then you better be prepared to spend a few hours with them explaining beyond a shadow of a doubt why your eschatology is the only correct one and back it up by showing it is what all of the early church immediately after the apostles believed.

BTW - Notice how all the verbs in that verse are in the present tense, including the worshipping and receiving the mark of the beast.

 

[Krsto]

Does that mean that you see the lake of fire as literal as well? :squint:

No more literal than the wine, the cup, the beast, the image, the lamb, the mark of the beast, . . . need I continue?

BTW - The Lake of Fire is not in the verse in question, it's fire and brimstone, which literally fell from heaven on Sodom and Ghommora while they were still on earth. As with much of typology, a natural event typifies a spiritual event or condition in the NT. See Sabbath Rest in Hebrews, for example.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yeah, on earth while they are still alive. Revelation is symbolic of spiritual realities. How you view these verses depends entirely on your eschatology which will depend in large part on your hermeneutics. If you want to tell thinking people, Christian or otherwise, that have a difficult time reconciling the idea of love and justice with eternal torment that they should base their belief on your interpretation of Rev. 14:11 then you better be prepared to spend a few hours with them explaining beyond a shadow of a doubt why your eschatology is the only correct one and back it up by showing it is what all of the early church immediately after the apostles believed.

BTW - Notice how all the verbs in that verse are in the present tense, including the worshipping and receiveing the mark of the beast.

Whilst your view is 'infinitely' more preferable to Aimiels, how do you react to negativity where it's only those who find the 'narrow path' to avoid your outcome as well? Are believers so much more worthy of eternal life than the atheist or agnostic? Are there any 'grey areas' in your theology?

 

[Arthur Brain]

No more literal than the wine, the cup, the beast, the image, the lamb, the mark of the beast, . . . need I continue?

BTW - The Lake of Fire is not in the verse in question, it's fire and brimstone, which literally fell from heaven on Sodom and Ghommora while they were still on earth. As with much of typology, a natural event typifies a spiritual event or condition in the NT. See Sabbath Rest in Hebrews, for example.

I just wanted to clarify. :e4e:

 

[Aimiel]

Um. So you think that the fire is literal then? Is *death* being tormented day and night forever? Are there still literal 'days and nights' in the beyond? Have you heard of metaphor?

Yes, and, I believe it's God's way of relating to temporal beings that there is no rest in the Lake of Fire, but that the torment is continual. Death, God's last enemy, is a spirit, just as hell is, and both will be tormented, just as The Bible says. Did you think it meant something else?