toldailytopic: Gay marriage.

[Persephone66]

You've never been to a divorce court or a probate court.

Then that harm happened within the marriage and is between the parties in the marriage.

 

[madman]

You may have a point re. hypocrisy, but you need to discard the following premise, or "supporting wall", in your argument:


"If you don't think gay marriage is right, then don't get married to someone of the same sex! It is that easy.” -flintstoned

By that “argument”, “if you don’t think that allowing 3 year olds to smoke pot is right, then don’t allow your 3 year old child to smoke pot! It is that easy!” /“if you don’t think allowing an eight year old girl to be a prostitute is right, then don’t allow your eight year old daughter to be a prostitute. It is that easy!”……………………………………………..

“if you don’t think”-Judges 21:25


Sodomites want approval, not rights. The issue of what "I think" is irrelevant. The LORD God does not approve of sodomy; therefore, neither do I.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

:thumb:

 

[Nick M]

No, I can't find anything specifically said by Jesus to a homosexual. I can find where He told a woman who was deserving of death under the OC penalties for adultery to go and sin no more. Sexual immorality is sexual immorality.



The Helper that God sent to us, He helps us find good and meaningful morals.

Are you sure you don't want to look in the Bible real quick before you answer questions? You should know by now the 1/2 of adultery conspirator dilema was created to get Jesus to go against Roman law in favor of God to cause him to commit a crime. But anyway,

 

[Ktoyou]

But, in practice, this "ideal" has not been the norm. Ten percent of couples are childless by choice, ten percent are sterile, and over fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. Elderly folks are not barred from matrimony. Marriage has many purposes -- childrearing as the central purpose is now happening in the minority of marriages. To deny homos the right to marry in the face of this hetero landscape is quite ridiculous.

These things are just not that important. They are the priotities of someone who seeks uniformity over substance. Perhaps an OCD sufferer?

False.

No. it's not! No one is asked about their intent to have children when applying for the license. No one has denied a elderly couple a license.


This is easily brought into parity when gay marriage is legalized.

You are a good egg, but so set in your ways.

Why is blood relation such an important thing? Do you think adoptive parents love their children any less?
Has separate but equal worked well in other situations?

We have a very strong cultural basis for gay marriage, it's called Equal Protection Under the Law.

Right, they should fight for second class status so that other people's OCD doesn't act up. :bang:

The principle is greater than the purpose! Culture is tradition, without tradition, a culture cannot maintain its value, thus we have chaos.:think:

You may see the fall of an American empire; I hope it will please you.

BTW: forget about OCD, you cannot diagnose it, so, for you, it is just something cute to say.:crackup:

 

[Frank Ernest]

Then that harm happened within the marriage and is between the parties in the marriage.

Well, :duh:. Marriages are contracts. As such they come under contract law. That's what divorce and probate courts are for: assess damages, assign responsibility and arbitrate and adjudicate remedies when said contracts come under dispute.

One cannot wave a magic wand and make them appear and disappear at whim.

 

[Frank Ernest]

The principle is greater than the purpose! Culture is tradition, without tradition, a culture cannot maintain its value, thus we have chaos.:think:

Famous lib principle: If we cut off the roots, the plant will flourish.

You may see the fall of an American empire; I hope it will please you.

Not an empire, but a hegemony that comes with power and prosperity. Diminish or abdicate that and one encourages the chaos that comes with the ensuing power struggle.

BTW: forget about OCD, you cannot diagnose it, so, for you, it is just something cute to say.:crackup:

Guess he said that to the wrong person, didn't he? :jolly:

 

[Uberpod1]

Famous lib principle: If we cut off the roots, the plant will flourish.

Root pruning is actually the prudent thing to do in many cases like when you are dealing with a potted plant or when science shows us the earth is not the center of the universe despite what that inerrant book may say.

Not an empire, but a hegemony that comes with power and prosperity. Diminish or abdicate that and one encourages the chaos that comes with the ensuing power struggle.

bring it on.

Guess he said that to the wrong person, didn't he? :jolly:

:madmad: I am trying to be nicer to ktoyou, but you had to say that! Judging by many of her comments on this forum, she is not a psychologist of great merit, I know psychology, psychology is a friend of mine, she's no psychologist. :kiss:

 

[elohiym]

Well, :duh:. Marriages are contracts. As such they come under contract law.

And illegal contracts are void.

(Good to know).

 

[Lehrer]

According to the Law of Moses homosexuality was punishable by death. The Law of Moses, though, applied in a legal sense only to the ancient Israelites until the more perfect Law of Christ. Israelites were not concerned with the rampant homosexuality of the nations around them.

If you were a homosexual in ancient Israel you had three choices. 1. Leave. 2. Don't practice, that is, don't engage in homosexual activities, and 3. Take a chance you don't get caught.

It is pretty much the same with the Christian congregation, except for that it isn't punishable by death but rather removal from the congregation until repentance.

So from a scriptural perspective homosexuality isn't a concern for the Christian outside of the congregation. Paul said some of the early Christians would formerly have practiced homosexuality, so someone like me, who is a formerly practicing homosexual, could remain in the Christian congregation.

However, outside of that is irrelevant because Christ told his followers to be no part of the world, that the world was coming to an end; that he in fact would destroy it. He didn't say "Go forth and subdue the world with false morality in my name."

 

[Granite]

Yeah, like getting rid of those thilly thilly age of consent laws (amongst other things).

Exposed: The Next Phase Of The Homosexual Agenda
Homosexual activists are now pushing for legalization of public sex in restrooms and parks; abolishing ‘age of consent laws,’ and legalizing prostitution.
www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/PublicSex.pdf

The sodomite's "utopia" is just around the corner.

Is there an echo in here?

 

[Persephone66]

Well, :duh:. Marriages are contracts. As such they come under contract law. That's what divorce and probate courts are for: assess damages, assign responsibility and arbitrate and adjudicate remedies when said contracts come under dispute.

One cannot wave a magic wand and make them appear and disappear at whim.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

 

[Lighthouse]

According to the Law of Moses murder was punishable by death. The Law of Moses, though, applied in a legal sense only to the ancient Israelites until the more perfect Law of Christ. Israelites were not concerned with the rampant murder of the nations around them.

Do you see that by changing 'homosexuality' to another sin [murder] that the idea behind your argument here is false?

Yes, it is true that the Law of Israel only applied to Israel, and could only be enforced by the government of Israel and upon Israelites. They could not go into a neighboring country and execute murderers, rapists, kidnappers, adulterers, and homosexuals. They could not make those thieves pay restitution. They couldn't flog the criminals of neighboring countries, etc.

But murder was still wrong, no matter where someone lived. And anyone who committed murder still deserved to be executed. And that is the point.

Any law in the Law of Moses that was not specifically made as solely part of the covenant between God and Israel then it is a law that should be in every Law. All murderers, rapists, kidnappers, adulterers and homosexuals deserve to be executed.

I don't mean they deserve to die in the same way that all sinners deserve to die [be separated from God], but in that they deserve to be intentionally executed according to the law. They deserve to die in the flesh by means of legal execution. Even if they have received forgiveness in Christ for the sin aspect of the act.

 

[Lon]

This just in.

(well, 3 days ago anyway)

 

[CabinetMaker]

What if you turn away cause noone will have you. Am I saved? :devil:

No.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Preferably God's.

Old Covenant Laws or New Covenant laws?

 

[CabinetMaker]

There is a clear distinction even directly in the Levitical law. Sin is any offense against God, while crimes are are specific subset of those which God empowers the civil government to, once proven at trial, punish.

Again within the Mosiac law we see any number of sins which are not crimes because the civil government is given no power to punish the person guilty of them. Leviticus 5:1-5 for example lists a number of sins, for which the Isrealites are ordered to seek atonement, but for which the civil government is given no ability to punish or compel obedience.

In fact, contrast Leviticus 5:1 specifically with Deuteronomy 19:16-19. In the first case we have a situation where someone failed to give testimony that he could have. This is sin, but it isn't a crime, and while he must make a sacrifice for atonement, the magistrate isn't entitled to make a determination of guilt or to punish him in any way for it. In the second case, we have the example of someone actually giving false testimony in a trial which not only a sin, but also a crime. In this case the magistrate is empowered to investigate the offense and a specific punishment is spelled out if the person is found guilty.

So the difference between a sin and a crime is the punishment?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Dude, I read this post on Saturday and spent the rest of the weekend thinking about how to respond. You are all over the place! First you say it has nothing to do with God. Then you say it has everything to do with God. Pick a position and stick with it.

Also, would you please define for use the difference between sin and crime?

And you cannot show that He rejected the Law in so doing.


Are you seriously that utterly stupid?!

*cough*

:sozo:I NEVER SAID IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH CRIME!

And it is an absolute non sequitur to theorize that its irrelevance to the Covenants, Testaments, or Dispensations must mean it is not a crime.

:doh:I just can't believe you're such an idiot.:doh:

I read a lot of your posts. I learned from the best!!

The fact that it is a sin has everything to do with God and His word [all of it]. That fact that it should be a crime has nothing to do with any of that.

Maybe you will start to make more sense when you define for us the difference between sin and crime.

God never decided it was criminal. He saw it and knew it was wrong as it went against everything He designed, planned, and desired. He saw it as a sin against Him, because that is what it was. So He told His people that it was a sin and to outlaw it, assigning it the most extreme and merciful punishment possible.

So God didn't know what a sin was until He saw it. Sounds like the courts definition of porn.

Now, as men we should, hopefully, see what God does when He sees this act. And we should know it is wrong. Not just wrong but so wrong that it deserves to be a capital crime. Because it is extremely injurious to the public and its welfare.

I agree that it is very wrong. Please tell me how it has injured you.

You're daft if you believe it harms no one else.

Then I'm daft. Try as I might, I can't see how this particular form of sexual immorality is any worse than all the other forms of sexual immorality. In fact, compared to all the slutty stuff coming out of Hollywood and the tramp starlets, homosexuality is the least of the threats my daughters face.

An adult. As in vs a five year old.

Good night, you're a moron!


You have to be one of the stupidest people on the planet.

It made absolutely no difference how much one loved their children if their children committed any capital crime, even crimes against their own parents. The law stated that those children must die, no matter how mama and papa felt.

Come back when you have had a child and understand that no matter how old they are, they are always your child. While I appreciate the way hate your family and would gladly kill your children for cursing you, I think you have completely missed Christs message of forgiveness. He forgives your child, why can't you?

I almost feel like I need a power drill to get through your thick skull.


No kidding. I know what you said, and I know what you meant. And what you have just said here doesn't change my response one bit. In fact, it doesn't even address it.

Isn't it so much easier to argue your own points than to actually address what people actually said? Your good at it. It doesn't do much to further the conversation, but you are great at ignoring people.

No, you twit.


Morals were not created. They just are. Moral is moral and immoral is immoral.

So God is NOT the creator of ALL things. You scare me sometimes.

Even in the Old Covenant sin was dealt with separately from crime.

Prove it.

The price one paid for their crimes was not the same they paid for their sins, even when the sin and the crime were the same exact act. Why? Because God wanted it that way.

We await your proof.

And today though God forgives sin He does not have any desire to see crime go unpunished.

Again, once you provide your definitions of sin and crime and show to me where God drew the distinction, this might make sense.

I highly doubt you understand that.

Mostly because you are like Sozo in that you believe people who do not believe EXACTLY as you do are not Christian.

1. Did I ever say they decided to become a homo?

1. Well, Did they?
   

   [*]I never decided to be a heterosexual. I'm a man. End of story.

   There are homosexual men. Why are they homosexual?
   

   [*]I am forgiven of sin. I am a saint, no longer a sinner. My identity is in Christ, not in sin.

   Mine too! Pretty cool isn't it?!
   

   [*]This still isn't about sin.

   Well, we'll see how you define sin and crime and go from there.

He was never willing to forgive crime. I've already addressed this, numerous times. And sin and crime were not actually synonymous in the OC. It just happened that some sins were crimes, as it is today.

Well, if its important to you and if its important to your witness for Christ and if its important to your ministry, you'll address it again.

So, what makes homosexuality different?

None violent sin that is forgivable.

Because of morality, you dimwit!

Man are we in trouble. Nobody, including God according to you, know what is moral and what is not because morals exist outside of God's control. How will we ever figure them all out!?!?

Irrelevant. Jesus, when He walked this Earth in the likeness of man, was not recognized as a governing authority. In that regard He had no authority to place sentence and carry it out apart from those who were the authority. The fact that you don't understand that show you to be the stupid one here.

So what was more important to Jesus in this tale? Not committing a crime or forgiving a sinner? Do you think Jesus didn't know who the woman sinned with? Could Jesus have turned in the men as well and fulfilled His Father's law regarding adultery? Was it a cautionary tail about how we should examine the sins in our own life before we condemn others for the sins in their life? Teach us. You want to be a youth minister so teach us.

 

[CabinetMaker]

And by the way, no to gay marriage.

 

[WandererInFog]

So the difference between a sin and a crime is the punishment?

The difference is whether or not the civil government has the proper authority to punish someone for the offense.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The difference is whether or not the civil government has the proper authority to punish someone for the offense.

Since government derives it authority from God, all governments have the authority to punish someone for an offense, no?