toldailytopic: Gay marriage.

[Caino]

If marriage is good for heterosexuals then it’s good for homosexuals.

God created gay people as Gay, so to deny them the same rights is to somehow tell God that he made a mistake.

I think heterosexuals take up this topic because it’s easy for them to confess (what they see as the sins of another) then it is to work on their own problems because they simply are not wired like homosexuals.


Let them get married......besides, they may not want >your religion< forced upon them.

Have yee faith? then have it to yourself!



Caino

 

[CabinetMaker]

Nick_M and LightHouse,
I just thought about something regarding Jesus and the women caught in adultery. You say that they were trying to trap Jesus in a crime but Jesus never stopped the stoning. Jesus told the crowd that the person without sin could cast the first stone and none could. None were without sin. The only person without sin did not pick up a stone either. What does (or should) that teach us?

 

[Caino]

Nick_M and LightHouse,
I just thought about something regarding Jesus and the women caught in adultery. You say that they were trying to trap Jesus in a crime but Jesus never stopped the stoning. Jesus told the crowd that the person without sin could cast the first stone and none could. None were without sin. The only person without sin did not pick up a stone either. What does (or should) that teach us?

Well????....Im sorry, the answer is so glaring, so telling that I have to just chime in here an answer.

It teaches us that the Levitical laws were man made......unless you are prepared to say that during the times of Moses there were people without sin who were authorized to enforce justice.

In Jesus' brilliant and divinely tactful way, he didn’t change one letter of the law, rather he demonstrated how the law was inadequate to begin with. He used our hearts to make a point, the law vanished without the conflict of directly debating it.



Caino

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well????....Im sorry, the answer is so glaring, so telling that I have to just chime in here an answer.

It teaches us that the Levitical laws were man made......unless you are prepared to say that during the times of Moses there were people without sin who were authorized to enforce justice.

In Jesus' brilliant and divinely tactful way, he didn’t change one letter of the law, rather he demonstrated how the law was inadequate to begin with. He used our hearts to make a point, the law vanished without the conflict of directly debating it.



Caino

Actually, it does not teach the Mosaic Law was man made. It teaches us that we are all guilty of sin and that we need a savior.

 

[Caino]

Actually, it does not teach the Mosaic Law was man made. It teaches us that we are all guilty of sin and that we need a savior.

Well then, who was doing the stoning back then?.....and who was their savior? According to the established law, they were right to kill Jesus.


Caino

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well then, who was doing the stoning back then?.....and who was their savior? According to the established law, they were right to kill Jesus.


Caino

Israel was doing what they were commanded to do as part of their Covenant (The Old or Mosaic Covenant). Jesus was bringing us a New Covenant to replace the Old. Jesus was raising the standard. He needed to since Israel had pretty much abandoned their part of the Old Covenant and rendered much of God's original law to them useless.

 

[Lighthouse]

Dude, I read this post on Saturday and spent the rest of the weekend thinking about how to respond. You are all over the place! First you say it has nothing to do with God. Then you say it has everything to do with God. Pick a position and stick with it.

At what point did I say it had everything to do with God? Where?

Also, would you please define for use the difference between sin and crime?

:squint:

A sin is also a crime when it crosses a line into necessitating a punishment in the corporeal realm from the governing authorities.

If that is not clear enough for you think about what makes murder, rape, theft, kidnapping and perjury crimes and not just sins.

Maybe you will start to make more sense when you define for us the difference between sin and crime.

The fact that you don't already know speaks volumes.

So God didn't know what a sin was until He saw it. Sounds like the courts definition of porn.

No you idiot!:doh:

You truly are one of the dumbest people on the planet!

The idea of murder had never even crossed His mind for it did not exist. When it happened God saw it and knew it was a sin. That does not mean He didn't know what sin was until He saw it. Do you even have any idea what logic is?

I agree that it is very wrong. Please tell me how it has injured you.

:bang:

Sodom and Gomorrah are prime examples of how legalizing sexual immorality is injurious to the public welfare.

Then I'm daft. Try as I might, I can't see how this particular form of sexual immorality is any worse than all the other forms of sexual immorality. In fact, compared to all the slutty stuff coming out of Hollywood and the tramp starlets, homosexuality is the least of the threats my daughters face.

Adultery and rape are the only other forms of sexual immorality for which God commanded death. So they are clearly worse that fornication. However, rapes isn't actually about the sex itself in the mind of the rapist. However, Paul lays out for us in Romans 1 that homosexuality is the ultimate sexual immorality, and explains why it is so. If you can't read I don't know what to tell you.

Come back when you have had a child and understand that no matter how old they are, they are always your child. While I appreciate the way hate your family and would gladly kill your children for cursing you, I think you have completely missed Christs message of forgiveness. He forgives your child, why can't you?

I NEVER SAID I COULD NOT FORGIVE!

Why are you so stupid as to assume demanding the law be administered means I cannot forgive?

And why are you so stupid that I have to try to explain this one to you again: the government did not care how much one loved their child, the law called for the death of those who cursed their parents. Bottom line. God commanded it, no matter how much love the parents had for their son or daughter.

If such a law existed today the government would tell me it didn't matter if I loved my son, if he cursed me he was going to die for it. And there would be nothing I could do.

Isn't it so much easier to argue your own points than to actually address what people actually said? Your good at it. It doesn't do much to further the conversation, but you are great at ignoring people.

I've been highly trained to ignore idiocy.

Kudos to you for, once again, not addressing the point I made, though.

So God is NOT the creator of ALL things. You scare me sometimes.

You are the dumbest of the dumb.

Not all things were created. The Bible states that God made all things that were made. Nowhere does it state that God made that which was not made. Morals are not a creation. They were not created.

Prove it.

:rotfl:

Sin was dealt with through animal sacrifices. Crime was dealt with through punishments from the government. Are you really so ignorant of the word of God that you did not know that?

We await your proof.

I honestly though this was common sense.

Again, once you provide your definitions of sin and crime and show to me where God drew the distinction, this might make sense.

I'm running out of synonyms for idiot that I can use on TOL.

Mostly because you are like Sozo in that you believe people who do not believe EXACTLY as you do are not Christian.

LIAR!

Well, Did they?

Only in that they decided to engage in homosexual behavior. If they have never done so then no decision to be homosexual has been made.

There are homosexual men. Why are they homosexual?

Brokenness, fallen world, etc.

Mine too! Pretty cool isn't it?!

If only you really believed that.

Well, we'll see how you define sin and crime and go from there.

See above.

Well, if its important to you and if its important to your witness for Christ and if its important to your ministry, you'll address it again.

Was there ever a time when God forgave a crime the same way He forgives sin? If so, why don't you show me where the story is in the Bible...

None violent sin that is forgivable.

You do realize the 'forgivable' bit is irrelevant, right? Murder is forgivable as a sin. So is rape. And kidnapping. And theft. And any other sin that is also a crime.

So, now, what makes homosexuality different from the other sins that you believe should be crimes?

Man are we in trouble. Nobody, including God according to you, know what is moral and what is not because morals exist outside of God's control. How will we ever figure them all out!?!?

You're an idiot. You know that? You really are.

Do you live on a diet of non sequiturs?

I never said morals existed outside of God's control. They exist because of God, as a byproduct of His existence. They are one of His attributes, a result of Holiness. God did not create them, they exist because He exists. Which means they do not exist outside of, or apart from, Him. Just like time.

He is not outside of them, they are not outside of Him.

So what was more important to Jesus in this tale? Not committing a crime or forgiving a sinner? Do you think Jesus didn't know who the woman sinned with? Could Jesus have turned in the men as well and fulfilled His Father's law regarding adultery? Was it a cautionary tail about how we should examine the sins in our own life before we condemn others for the sins in their life? Teach us. You want to be a youth minister so teach us.

When Jesus finished writing there were no accusers left. They had gone. And just as it is today when there are no witnesses willing to testify before a judge there is no case. So in this Jesus had no option but to let her go on her way without receiving punishment for the crime.

And how could Jesus turn anyone in? He was not a witness. And if you try to argue that He could know for certain without having been there you will show me to be correct in my assessment of your mental faculties, because if the authorities did not recognize Him as who He was then they would not receive Him as a witness to the crime.

Since government derives it authority from God, all governments have the authority to punish someone for an offense, no?

Only for the offenses which God commanded they punish one for. So if God does not want the government punishing someone for lying to their parents about the missing cookies then that lie is not a criminal act.

God created gay people as Gay, so to deny them the same rights is to somehow tell God that he made a mistake.

This will stand the test of time as the most ridiculous argument made in this debate.

No evidence exists whatsoever that God created people to be homosexual. In fact, all evidence is to the contrary. He commanded that anyone who committed such an act be executed. You don't do that if you intended them to be that way. He created the first two humans as a man and a woman. He never created any other option. We are clearly designed so that reproduction through natural biological means can only happen between a male and a female.[/quote]

Nick_M and LightHouse,
I just thought about something regarding Jesus and the women caught in adultery. You say that they were trying to trap Jesus in a crime but Jesus never stopped the stoning. Jesus told the crowd that the person without sin could cast the first stone and none could. None were without sin. The only person without sin did not pick up a stone either. What does (or should) that teach us?

Jesus was not a witness to the crime, therefore, according to His own commands, He was not allowed to throw the first stone, sinless or not.

Do you want me to list the sins those men were guilty of in just that story?

 

[CabinetMaker]

You and Sozo are always entertaining though your vocabularies for those who disagree with you are rather limited.

At what point did I say it had everything to do with God? Where?

Go back and look at your posts where you said this had nothing to do with the OC or NC. Those are God's Covenants with men, are they not?

A sin is also a crime when it crosses a line into necessitating a punishment in the corporeal realm from the governing authorities.

If that is not clear enough for you think about what makes murder, rape, theft, kidnapping and perjury crimes and not just sins.

Who was the Government when Moses received that OC law?

The idea of murder had never even crossed His mind for it did not exist. When it happened God saw it and knew it was a sin. That does not mean He didn't know what sin was until He saw it. Do you even have any idea what logic is?

So now God is not omniscient? He can only know what is immoral after He has seen it?

Sodom and Gomorrah are prime examples of how legalizing sexual immorality is injurious to the public welfare.

Playing the devils advocate a bit here, aside from God's punishment rained down upon them, how was it injurious to the public welfare? The cities seemed to be doing just fine.

Adultery and rape are the only other forms of sexual immorality for which God commanded death. So they are clearly worse that fornication.

Really? Do you think a person who spends their whole life sleeping around will fare any better in God's judgment than a homosexual?

And why are you so stupid that I have to try to explain this one to you again: the government did not care how much one loved their child, the law called for the death of those who cursed their parents. Bottom line. God commanded it, no matter how much love the parents had for their son or daughter.

If such a law existed today the government would tell me it didn't matter if I loved my son, if he cursed me he was going to die for it. And there would be nothing I could do.

Fair enough.

I've been highly trained to ignore idiocy.

But you don't seem to be able to avoid practicing it.

Kudos to you for, once again, not addressing the point I made, though.

Well, when you start addressing a few of mine then I might be able to address a few of yours.

Sin was dealt with through animal sacrifices. Crime was dealt with through punishments from the government. Are you really so ignorant of the word of God that you did not know that?

When Moses received the Mosaic Covenant, who did God put in charge of administering the Covenant?

Only in that they decided to engage in homosexual behavior. If they have never done so then no decision to be homosexual has been made.

So you did not know you were a heterosexual until you had sex with a woman.

Was there ever a time when God forgave a crime the same way He forgives sin? If so, why don't you show me where the story is in the Bible...

Yes. Jesus forgave the crime and the sin of the adulterous woman.

You do realize the 'forgivable' bit is irrelevant, right? Murder is forgivable as a sin. So is rape. And kidnapping. And theft. And any other sin that is also a crime.

No, forgiveness is at the core of this. Forgiveness from God, not the government. The government can and should create and enforce laws and punishments. What I object to is the notion that homosexuals should be executed out of hand. I believe that they can repent and love and Serve God just as any other sinner, including murderers, can. In fact, there is a case here in Colorado of a young man, about 14 or 15, who killed his abusive father. During prison this young man studied and became a doctor. His sentence was commuted and he went to the reservations and provided medical care for those who needed it. Now, I do not know if this man knew Christ or not, but this man did repent for his sin/crime and made a life of serving others.

So, now, what makes homosexuality different from the other sins that you believe should be crimes?

Since I am not condemned by the Old Covenant I do not think I should judge others for their sins under that covenant. God doesn't so why should I? I think society should make laws that protect us from each other, not from ourselves.

You're an idiot. You know that? You really are.

Coming from you that means... Nothing.

Not all things were created. The Bible states that God made all things that were made. Nowhere does it state that God made that which was not made. Morals are not a creation. They were not created.

I never said morals existed outside of God's control. They exist because of God, as a byproduct of His existence. They are one of His attributes, a result of Holiness. God did not create them, they exist because He exists. Which means they do not exist outside of, or apart from, Him. Just like time.

He is not outside of them, they are not outside of Him.

Oddly enough, this is actually fairly close to being right. Where you miss it is in saying God only knows it when He sees it. God always knows what is moral and what is not. How and when He reveals that to His creation is one thing, but God ALWAYS knows what is immoral before it happens.

When Jesus finished writing there were no accusers left. They had gone. And just as it is today when there are no witnesses willing to testify before a judge there is no case. So in this Jesus had no option but to let her go on her way without receiving punishment for the crime.

So was the woman guilty of a crime?

And how could Jesus turn anyone in? He was not a witness. And if you try to argue that He could know for certain without having been there you will show me to be correct in my assessment of your mental faculties, because if the authorities did not recognize Him as who He was then they would not receive Him as a witness to the crime.

You know, Jesus being God and all, I am quite certain that if Jesus had wanted to make sure the woman was stoned, she would have been stoned. This is less about her actions than it is about our own hearts. Do you have the moral purity to cast the first stone at a homosexual?

Only for the offenses which God commanded they punish one for. So if God does not want the government punishing someone for lying to their parents about the missing cookies then that lie is not a criminal act.

Sure it can be. If our government says that steeling a cookie from the cookie jar is a capitol offense, then it is. And there is nothing you can do about it.

No evidence exists whatsoever that God created people to be homosexual. In fact, all evidence is to the contrary. He commanded that anyone who committed such an act be executed. You don't do that if you intended them to be that way. He created the first two humans as a man and a woman. He never created any other option. We are clearly designed so that reproduction through natural biological means can only happen between a male and a female.

God didn't create anybody to be a murderer either but Cain took care of that one. And he wasn't condemned to death either, cursed yes, but sentenced to die. Murder must have become a crime later.

Do you want me to list the sins those men were guilty of in just that story?

Sure. Then look in the mirror and see how many of those sins apply to you.

 

[Silent Hunter]

A sin is also a crime when it crosses a line into necessitating a punishment in the corporeal realm from the governing authorities.

So homosexuality is only a sin . . . not a crime . . . check.

If that is not clear enough for you think about what makes murder, rape, theft, kidnapping and perjury crimes and not just sins.

These things are “crimes” because they injure people. How are people injured by homosexuality?

Maybe you will start to make more sense when you define for us the difference between sin and crime.

The fact that you don't already know speaks volumes.

It’s not a matter of “don’t know;” we need YOUR definition for clarification.

You truly are one of the dumbest people on the planet!

Take a look in a mirror sometime. There’s something there you really need to see.

The idea of murder had never even crossed His mind for it did not exist. When it happened God saw it and knew it was a sin. That does not mean He didn't know what sin was until He saw it. Do you even have any idea what logic is?

The all-knowing, all-seeing invisible sky spirit didn’t KNOW something?

Sodom and Gomorrah are prime examples of how legalizing sexual immorality is injurious to the public welfare.

How exactly does homosexuality “injure the public welfare?"

Adultery and rape are the only other forms of sexual immorality for which God commanded death.

Please cite the scripture where rape is a “sin.” Please cite the scripture where the invisible sky spirit commands death for rape.

So they are clearly worse that fornication.

I like fornication. Pretty much everything is worse than consensual sex.

God commanded it, no matter how much love the parents had for their son or daughter. If such a law existed today the government would tell me it didn't matter if I loved my son, if he cursed me he was going to die for it. And there would be nothing I could do.

You seem like the kind of person who would turn their child in for this “sin.” Would you?

Not all things were created. The Bible states that God made all things that were made. Nowhere does it state that God made that which was not made. Morals are not a creation. They were not created.

What is the difference between “created” and “made.”

Sin was dealt with through animal sacrifices. Crime was dealt with through punishments from the government. Are you really so ignorant of the word of God that you did not know that?

Apparently you are. In the OT there is no distinction between sin and crime among the Jews.

I honestly though this was common sense.

Hey butt monkey! The word is “thought.”

I'm running out of synonyms for idiot that I can use on TOL.

Never has stopped you before.

There are homosexual men. Why are they homosexual?

Brokenness, fallen world, etc.

Being a homosexual is not a choice.

Was there ever a time when God forgave a crime the same way He forgives sin? If so, why don't you show me where the story is in the Bible...

David and Bathsheba comes to mind. I don’t recall David being punished according to the law.

So, now, what makes homosexuality different from the other sins that you believe should be crimes?

NO ONE IS HARMED.

I never said morals existed outside of God's control. They exist because of God, as a byproduct of His existence. They are one of His attributes, a result of Holiness. God did not create them, they exist because He exists. Which means they do not exist outside of, or apart from, Him. Just like time.

He is not outside of them, they are not outside of Him.

This is circular logic.

 

[Caino]

Originally Posted by Caino

God created gay people as Gay, so to deny them the same rights is to somehow tell God that he made a mistake.

This will stand the test of time as the most ridiculous argument made in this debate.

God created Gay people, the problem is not God, it’s that you are a hatful individual.

No evidence exists whatsoever that God created people to be homosexual. In fact, all evidence is to the contrary. He commanded that anyone who committed such an act be executed. You don't do that if you intended them to be that way. He created the first two humans as a man and a woman. He never created any other option. We are clearly designed so that reproduction through natural biological means can only happen between a male and a female.

No evidence exist that God did not create Gay people, there has been a consistent group of them all down through the ages.

Further, there is no evidence that God created the Levitical laws, to the contrary, the evidence suggest that these laws reflect men’s thinking not Gods. [God does not change, the God revealed by Jesus is much greater then the dim view of him reflected in the OT]

"When God hates the same people that you do, then you can rest assured that you have created God in your own image."

I am truly sorry to any gay person that may happen upon these close minded bigots! They truly do not represent the love of Jesus.




Caino

 

[Uberpod1]

:madmad: I am trying to be nicer to ktoyou, but you had to say that! Judging by many of her comments on this forum, she is not a psychologist of great merit, I know psychology, psychology is a friend of mine, she's no psychologist. :kiss:

I have no doubt that K was a psychologist at one time. I've never doubted it. I also find her to be an honest woman. If the above statement seemed to counter this, I sincerely regret it. I hope in the future, our arguments will be the basis for evaluation, and that we will not try to lean on credentials over the merit of the argument presented.

Peace.

 

[Cruciform]

God created Gay people, the problem is not God, it’s that you are a hatful individual.

Two questions:

[1] Does God also create fornicators, adulterers, rapists, and pedophiles?

[2] Does observing that someone's behavior is immoral necessarily equate to "hating" them? Can it not rather indicate one's love and compassion for the person in question?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Lighthouse]

You and Sozo are always entertaining though your vocabularies for those who disagree with you are rather limited.

Only by the rules of TOL.

Go back and look at your posts where you said this had nothing to do with the OC or NC. Those are God's Covenants with men, are they not?

I know where I said it had nothing to do with God. I asked where I said it had everything to do with God. Learn to read.

Who was the Government when Moses received that OC law?

Which one? Do you mean the decalogue?

So now God is not omniscient? He can only know what is immoral after He has seen it?

Moron.

God knows what is knowable. If something does not exist it cannot be known. That does not mean God is not omniscient.:doh:

God can only know something when it exists.

Playing the devils advocate a bit here, aside from God's punishment rained down upon them, how was it injurious to the public welfare? The cities seemed to be doing just fine.

Really?

I really think I need to give up on you.

Really? Do you think a person who spends their whole life sleeping around will fare any better in God's judgment than a homosexual?

They fared better in the Law.

Fair enough.

It's about time it sunk in.

Well, when you start addressing a few of mine then I might be able to address a few of yours.

:yawn:

When Moses received the Mosaic Covenant, who did God put in charge of administering the Covenant?

Moses.:dunce::duh:

So you did not know you were a heterosexual until you had sex with a woman.

I'm not a heterosexual. I'm a man.

Yes. Jesus forgave the crime and the sin of the adulterous woman.

How? He never said He forgave her for anything. So where do you get the idea He forgave both?

No, forgiveness is at the core of this. Forgiveness from God, not the government. The government can and should create and enforce laws and punishments. What I object to is the notion that homosexuals should be executed out of hand. I believe that they can repent and love and Serve God just as any other sinner, including murderers, can. In fact, there is a case here in Colorado of a young man, about 14 or 15, who killed his abusive father. During prison this young man studied and became a doctor. His sentence was commuted and he went to the reservations and provided medical care for those who needed it. Now, I do not know if this man knew Christ or not, but this man did repent for his sin/crime and made a life of serving others.

If it has absolutely nothing to do with God then forgiveness from God has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The government does not have the authority from God to forgive crime.

You speak correctly, and lay out the basis of my entire point when you say:

The government can and should create and enforce laws and punishments.

As for the young man who killed his abusive father was it murder?

Since I am not condemned by the Old Covenant I do not think I should judge others for their sins under that covenant. God doesn't so why should I? I think society should make laws that protect us from each other, not from ourselves.

What does this have to do with the Old Covenant?

Oddly enough, this is actually fairly close to being right. Where you miss it is in saying God only knows it when He sees it. God always knows what is moral and what is not. How and when He reveals that to His creation is one thing, but God ALWAYS knows what is immoral before it happens.

Stupid idiot!

I never said God did not know morality and/or immorality until He saw it! I said He did not know of murder, i.e. it never came into His mind that such a thing would happen, until the first murder took place.

Jeremiah 32:35

So was the woman guilty of a crime?

I see no reason to believe she was innocent of the crime of adultery.

You know, Jesus being God and all, I am quite certain that if Jesus had wanted to make sure the woman was stoned, she would have been stoned.

Do you think the same thing re: abortion? If God wanted something done about it He would do something about it?

This is less about her actions than it is about our own hearts. Do you have the moral purity to cast the first stone at a homosexual?

Matthew 7:5

Sure it can be. If our government says that steeling a cookie from the cookie jar is a capitol offense, then it is. And there is nothing you can do about it.

I can argue against it. That is not a law that God would ordain.

God didn't create anybody to be a murderer either but Cain took care of that one. And he wasn't condemned to death either, cursed yes, but sentenced to die. Murder must have become a crime later.

I wasn't talking to you here.

But I will address your faulty theory here: God had not yet conceived of murder before Cain committed murder, therefore God had not commanded any particular law for it, let alone a punishment. You're right, it was not yet a crime. But God knew it should be when it happened, so when He made a Law He commanded it be illegal and punishable by death.

Sure. Then look in the mirror and see how many of those sins apply to you.

:doh:

I meant the sins they were guilty of specifically in that event, not all the sins they were guilty of in total.

They were guilty of bringing the woman without the man, as the law in question commanded both the man and the woman be executed. They were guilty of bringing the woman to Jesus when He was not a recognized authority [priest and/or judge] to enforce the Law. That's two sins right there. And possibly perjury, though we don't actually know.

None of those sins can apply to me.

 

[Lighthouse]

God created Gay people, the problem is not God, it’s that you are a hatful individual.

You're an idiot.

No evidence exist that God did not create Gay people, there has been a consistent group of them all down through the ages.

You're a complete moron.

Further, there is no evidence that God created the Levitical laws, to the contrary, the evidence suggest that these laws reflect men’s thinking not Gods. [God does not change, the God revealed by Jesus is much greater then the dim view of him reflected in the OT]

:blabla:

"When God hates the same people that you do, then you can rest assured that you have created God in your own image."

You've got that backwards there, nancy boy. I did not hate prior to learning that God hated. And I only hate those who hate God, as David did [Psalm 139:19-22]. I hate sin and sinners because God made me in His own image.

I am truly sorry to any gay person that may happen upon these close minded bigots! They truly do not represent the love of Jesus.

Psalm 5:5 states that God hates all workers of iniquity, i.e. sinners. Romans 5:8 states that God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, i.e. workers of iniquity, Christ died for us.

So, in conclusion, God loved us so much that even though He hated us Christ died for us. Such is the love of God, the love of Christ. And that is the love that burns inside of me.

If I did not love the homosexual I would not care for them at all. I would let them go to Hell and have no concern. But rather I would that they not go to Hell, but spend eternity with the Living God. So I will call them to repentance, as that is what God wants for them [2 Peter 3:9].

 

[CabinetMaker]

Only by the rules of TOL.

I see. So you are only "well behaved" on TOL because of TOL's rules and not because it is the right thing to do.


I know where I said it had nothing to do with God. I asked where I said it had everything to do with God. Learn to read.

Which one? Do you mean the decalogue?

That and into Leviticus. Who was responsible for administering God's covenant?

Moron.

God knows what is knowable. If something does not exist it cannot be known. That does not mean God is not omniscient.:doh:

God can only know something when it exists.

So who creates the things God does not know exist?

Really?

I really think I need to give up on you.

Refuses to answer that one. Noted.

They fared better in the Law.

Refused to answer that one as well. Noted.

Moses.:dunce::duh:

Moses was the bringer of the law. Who was charged with enforcing it?

I'm not a heterosexual. I'm a man.

I think I'll start calling you Pat.

How? He never said He forgave her for anything. So where do you get the idea He forgave both?

From the mouth of Jesus.
John 8:10-11 (New International Version)

10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
There was no difference to Jesus between a sin and a crime.

The government does not have the authority from God to forgive crime.

God gave govenrments authority. I find it hard to believe that God did not include the authority to grant mercy along with the ability to impose punishment.

As for the young man who killed his abusive father was it murder?

The government concluded that it was and prosecuted him for it. In part because at the time he killed his father, his father was not an immediate threat (I think he was asleep but I do not recall exactly).

Stupid idiot!

I never said God did not know morality and/or immorality until He saw it! I said He did not know of murder, i.e. it never came into His mind that such a thing would happen, until the first murder took place.

Poor God. I never realized how out of touch with His creation He is.

I see no reason to believe she was innocent of the crime of adultery.

So why did Jesus forgive her and let her go? After all, it is your contention that God has no intention of forgiving crime.

I can argue against it. That is not a law that God would ordain.

So maybe we should just cut his hand off instead.

But I will address your faulty theory here: God had not yet conceived of murder before Cain committed murder, therefore God had not commanded any particular law for it, let alone a punishment. You're right, it was not yet a crime. But God knew it should be when it happened, so when He made a Law He commanded it be illegal and punishable by death.

I don't think that it was God who had not yet conceived of murder, I think it was Adam and Eve and the rest of mankind. We didn't know what it was so there was no reason for God to deal with it before Cain. God knew it would happen and He knew he would deal with it when it did happen.

I meant the sins they were guilty of specifically in that event, not all the sins they were guilty of in total.

They were guilty of bringing the woman without the man, as the law in question commanded both the man and the woman be executed. They were guilty of bringing the woman to Jesus when He was not a recognized authority [priest and/or judge] to enforce the Law. That's two sins right there. And possibly perjury, though we don't actually know.

What makes you think those were the only sins being addressed by Jesus? There was a large crowd assembled and He told the whole crowd that the one without sin could cast the first stone. Not everybody in that crowd was involved with bringing the woman yet not one person in that crowd was without sin.

None of those sins can apply to me.

Well aren't you a self-righteous little twit.

 

[Lighthouse]

I see. So you are only "well behaved" on TOL because of TOL's rules and not because it is the right thing to do.

Define "well behaved."

I know where I said it had nothing to do with God. I asked where I said it had everything to do with God. Learn to read.

Are you going to answer this?

That and into Leviticus. Who was responsible for administering God's covenant?

You already have my answer on that one.

So who creates the things God does not know exist?

That isn't at all what I said, you insipid twit.

If something does not exist then God does not know of it, because things that do not exist cannot be known as a result of their non-existence. Not once did I say God did not know things that exist.

I'm honestly starting to find your idiocy incomprehensible. I truly cannot believe you are this stupid.

Refuses to answer that one. Noted.

I'm not refusing to answer. I just can't believe you're this ignorant. How can you look at those cities and think they were doing fine?

Refused to answer that one as well. Noted.

Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't answer. Do you not have any common sense? Or am I just wrong on what should be common sense? If they fared better according to the law then it logically follows that they fare better in God's judgment in regard to the topic at hand. As for whether or not they fare better in His judgment on sin that is irrelevant. However I think I should probably make it clear that any who do not turn to God go to Hell. However, Jesus did say Sodom and Gomorrah would fare better on judgment day than any city who, [Jesus]"will not receive you nor hear your words,"[/Jesus] regarding the cities the disciples went into the preach the gospel.

So some will fare better than others on that day.

Moses was the bringer of the law. Who was charged with enforcing it?

The people, actually. Most of the time. If they felt incapable of making a judgment they were to take it to a priest and a judge.

What of it?

I think I'll start calling you Pat.

Pat was a woman.

From the mouth of Jesus.
John 8:10-11 (New International Version)

10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
There was no difference to Jesus between a sin and a crime.

Where did He say He forgave her? All He said was that He did not condemn her. All that means is He did not know whether or not she was guilty. And that is because He did not witness it. Could He have known if He wanted? Yes. But that is irrelevant as He was in no position to do anything about it, not being a recognized authority among those in authority.

God gave govenrments authority. I find it hard to believe that God did not include the authority to grant mercy along with the ability to impose punishment.

What does the Bible say? Read Romans 13 for the answer.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
-Romans 13:1-5

I don't see mercy proscribed therein.:nono:

The government concluded that it was and prosecuted him for it. In part because at the time he killed his father, his father was not an immediate threat (I think he was asleep but I do not recall exactly).

Then he should have been executed for murder and treason [taking the law into his own hands].

Poor God. I never realized how out of touch with His creation He is.

Why am I not surprised you ignored the Scripture?

P.S.
God did not create murder.

So why did Jesus forgive her and let her go? After all, it is your contention that God has no intention of forgiving crime.

There was no proof of her guilt. If you can't prove a crime has been committed you can't prosecute it, let alone punish it. Simple as that.

So maybe we should just cut his hand off instead.

There you go, disagreeing with God again. Shameful.

I don't think that it was God who had not yet conceived of murder, I think it was Adam and Eve and the rest of mankind. We didn't know what it was so there was no reason for God to deal with it before Cain. God knew it would happen and He knew he would deal with it when it did happen.

Prove it.

The fact that His punishment of Cain was not the same as what He later commanded speaks to the opposite of your posit.

What makes you think those were the only sins being addressed by Jesus?

Did I say they were?

This is why I call you daft.

There was a large crowd assembled and He told the whole crowd that the one without sin could cast the first stone. Not everybody in that crowd was involved with bringing the woman yet not one person in that crowd was without sin.

I'd really like to see your support for the highlighted section.

Well aren't you a self-righteous little twit.

Can you show me how the sins I listed can apply to me when I was yet to be born, not to mention all the other factors.

 

[Caino]

Two questions:

[1] Does God also create fornicators, adulterers, rapists, and pedophiles?

[2] Does observing that someone's behavior is immoral necessarily equate to "hating" them? Can it not rather indicate one's love and compassion for the person in question?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Hi Cruciform,

You asked:

*Does God also create fornicators, adulterers, rapists, and pedophiles?

Your question is founded on a false premise, that being gay or gay sex is immoral in Gods eyes and therefore classed with all other immoral behavior. Besides, the mores ebb and flow across cultures and the span of time. Some things which you may practice now that are acceptable were immoral/sins 400 years ago.

* Does observing that someone's behavior is immoral necessarily equate to "hating" them? Can it not rather indicate one's love and compassion for the person in question?

No, but some of these 5 year olds on this form hate them, its in there words.


Caino

 

[Real Sorceror]

Legalize it, plain and simple. Marriage is and always has been based on the reciprocal romantic love between two people.

The government should not create laws based purely on religion (remember that whole separation of church and state thing?), and the only real "argument" against homosexuality is a purely religious one.

 

[WandererInFog]

Since government derives it authority from God, all governments have the authority to punish someone for an offense, no?

The passage from Romans both grants governments authority and limits it at the same time. All legitimate governments derive their authority from God and as such are given the authority to carry out punishments for crimes. However, this also means that any government is only legitimate to the extent what it is punish and how it is punishing it coincides with God's revealed will.

 

[WandererInFog]

Marriage is and always has been based on the reciprocal romantic love between two people.

Well, no, actually it hasn't. For the vast majority of human history marriage has been primarily about the protection of property, procreation and the formation of a stable social order. Love, including romantic love, certainly played a role, but it was not central until very, very recently in human history.