toldailytopic: Gay marriage.

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CabinetMaker

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I guess you're just going to keep repeating this even though I've already demonstrated to you how the two were distinguished in the OT.



Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if you've actually read the books containing the Mosaic Law. Judges were selected in each town and from members of all of tribes. (Deuteronomy 16:18) Only on those rare occasions where the courts in a particular found a case to difficult judge did the priests have any role in passing judgment at all and even then they didn't have sole authority but had to help decide in conjunction with the appointed judge in the place where they resided. (Deuteronomy 17:9)

Herein you actually see another place in the Mosaic Law where sin is distinguished from crime, as civil governance is largely separated from ecclesiastical governance, with the civil magistrate (judge) having the authority to meet out punishment for crimes, while the ecclesiastical authorities (priests) are responsible for guiding the people to make the proper sacrifices to atone for their sins, and there are a large number of offenses recorded in the Mosaic Law that require atonement, but which the courts have no authority to punish.
The time of Judges came later in Israel history. That may be the first time that MEN began to differentiate between sin and crime but under the Law as given to Moses. But as given to Moses, there were only sins (crimes) against God. Even when one man did it to another man and the law provided for restitution, it was still a sin (crime) against God. All of the law was about getting right with God.
 

WandererInFog

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Jesus addressed everybody present.

No, he didn't. He addressed the Scribes and Pharisees who brought the woman too him, something that is clear both from the passage itself and within the context of the Mosaic Law which everyone present there was familiar with.

Do you believe that you are sinless enough to cast the first stone at another sinner?

I as an individual don't have the lawful authority to decide to kill anyone. God has given that authority to the civil government, the entire scenario you paint is therefore irrelevant to the question at hand.
 

WandererInFog

New member
The time of Judges came later in Israel history. That may be the first time that MEN began to differentiate between sin and crime but under the Law as given to Moses.

Ok, at this point your ignorance of the OT and the Mosaic law has reached monumental proportions, and what's worse is that you don't seem to have any interest in becoming less ignorant. The passages I cited in my last post regarding the authority judges are from the law as handed down by Moses in Deutoronomy, however that isn't even where it first started as that would be in Exodus 18.


But as given to Moses, there were only sins (crimes) against God. Even when one man did it to another man and the law provided for restitution, it was still a sin (crime) against God.

All sin is an offense against God. All sin requires atonement. All sin however was not criminalized as in many cases no one was given the authority to enforce a given ordinance.

All of the law was about getting right with God.

That was one of it's functions, but it certainly wasn't its only one. The law also served the purposes of maintaining a well-ordered society, assuring an equitable distribution of land among the tribes, making provision for the poor and defenseless, and so forth.
 

CabinetMaker

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I really shouldn't be surprised by this any more but it never ceases to amaze me how far christians will go to justify saying "God really loves you and He wants you dead." The good news seems to be Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins and now He wants you dead too. Or maybe its The good news of the Gospel is only for those who sins don't warrant death.
 

madman

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I really shouldn't be surprised by this any more but it never ceases to amaze me how far christians will go to justify saying "God really loves you and He wants you dead." The good news seems to be Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins and now He wants you dead too. Or maybe its The good news of the Gospel is only for those who sins don't warrant death.
It's stupid, stupid, stupid, comments like you made here that really remove the smidgen of credibility you may of had left.

You have a very sad and pathetic view of God.

Apparently you believe that God does not love people who get a traffic ticket when they speed, get arrested when they steal, lose their marriage when they commit adultery, become ill when they take heroin, or get sent to the electric chair when they commit murder.

You seriously have a huge mental block in being able to separate judgment from God for sin, and punishment for evil behavior in this life. Until you can discern the simplicity of these, you will forever remain blind, and your comments will continue to reveal your foolish beliefs.
 

Real Sorceror

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You seriously have a huge mental block in being able to separate judgment from God for sin, and punishment for evil behavior in this life. Until you can discern the simplicity of these, you will forever remain blind, and your comments will continue to reveal your foolish beliefs.
Its pretty hard to separate the two when I'm being told that the guy doing the loving and the judging is the same person.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
What is the difference between a sin and a crime?

Could the invisible sky spirit not anticipate different sins/crimes before the first occurrence?
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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so which political party is on the right side of these two issues?
Sycophant.

****************************************************

I presume that "madman" is referring to Leviticus 20:13 which makes the connection between committing "homosexual" acts and the death penalty.

What "madman" fails to mention is that Leviticus 20 happens to be a "package deal" and that it would be hypocritical is impose the death penalty for one and not for all!

If one were to impose the death penalty (stoning) for cursing one's parents, who would be left on earth to conduct the other executions?
madman didn't even mention the rest of Lev. 20, let alone confirm or deny any view, whatsoever, on whether the rest of it should also be applied today as criminal law.

You fail.

What difference would that make. You have already demonstrated that your behavior is based on somebodies rules and not on what is the right thing to do regardless of what rules might be in place.
You're an idiot.

Not once did I ever say I believed the rules here to be the 'right thing to do' in all instances. I stand firm in my belief that it would be perfectly right to say things to you that I am not allowed to say here. And I would never say them if they were wrong to say.

You made another non sequitur. Do you like to fail? Is that what this is?

And, FYI, respecting Knight [as TOL is his] is the right thing to do, so that is why I don't break his rules. The one time I did, and got banned for it, I thought I was within the rules.

Yes and it was wrong. The priests were originally charged with enforcing God's law. Sin was a crime and crime was a sin. If you stole from your brother then you were taken before the priests for judgment and punishment as God set forth in His Covenant with Israel. The concept of Crime and Sin being different came much much later.
Idiot.

The judges were charged with enforcing the law. WIF already explained this to you, so I will refrain from redundancy.

Once again, you rephrased my question into something I did not asked and answered your own question.
I didn't change a single word of what you posted, liar.

Because by their lax human standards, they were. They were quite happy in their completely immoral life style and their cities seemed to be economically viable.
They were doing fine by their standards so you consider them to have been doing fine? What the hell is wrong with you? Did you fall on your head?

The sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom. Exactly how sexually immoral can a person be before they are sexually immoral enough not inherit the kingdom?
Irrelevant.

Exactly what denomination are yo a member of? I think you are drawing distinctions between "forgive" and "not condemn" that do not exist. The Son of Man said I do not condemn you. That is a pretty powerful way of saying I forgive you!
I am a member of no denomination. I am a Christian, period.

And you're an idiot if you honestly think "I do not condemn you," means the same as, "I forgive you."

Well, using your reasoning from above, there is nothing in there that says a government cannot grant mercy, is there.
Yes, there is, you moron.

Odd answer but okay.
How is that odd?

Explain your response in much more detail. IT makes no sense at all as stated.
Really?

I think I might actually start to cry, because no one deserves to be as stupid as you.

The idea of murder had never even crossed God's mind, therefore He had no set punishment for it. After it happened He punished Cain with the first punishment He conceived. And then, later, He decided on a different punishment [execution] and it remained forever after. This proves you wrong.

Biblically, we know nothing other than there was a crowd. We don't know how big it was or who was in it. But, since there is nothing new under the sun, it is not hard to imagine that people saw a fight brewing and went over to watch. Everybody loves to watch a good fight. So it is not unreasonable to conclude that there were people present who had nothing to do with bringing the woman to Christ. But they could not cast the first stone because they were not without sin either.
Again, Wander In Fog explained this to you, so I will refrain from redundancy.

But I will state my agreement with him that it is sad you do not know the Law of Moses, yet you want to argue as though you do.

So, if Jesus were alive today and you saw woman being taken to Him. You are not part of the people doing the bringing but you go over to listen. Jesus looks at the crowd and says that whoever is without sin can cast the first stone. Are you telling me that you are without sin and free to cast the first stone?
Jesus is alive today. Maybe that's your problem.

Your other problem is that you don't have the first clue as to why I am without sin. It is because Christ died for sin, and I am now free. If Christ had yet to die I would not be without sin.

And, as WIF explained, even if I was without sin, in your scenario I was not among the accusers so, according to the Law, I could not cast the first stone.

I don't have to, you've already done that for me. I've yet to see a gay-debate thread on this website where scripture wasn't quoted multiple times.
Coward.

Its pretty hard to separate the two when I'm being told that the guy doing the loving and the judging is the same person.
Faulty premise. Your are full of fail in the idea that those who love do not judge.
 

madman

New member
Sin is on offense between man and God, and it has been propitiated. "It is finished"

Man is accountable to man for his behavior in this life. God ordained a system so that man is not free to do whatever is right in his own eyes, and it is also a way of revealing to man that fundamentally he is not good, so he will see his need for God's grace.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
madman didn't even mention the rest of Lev. 20, let alone confirm or deny any view, whatsoever, on whether the rest of it should also be applied today as criminal law.
How was the law separated between sin and crime? Unknown to you that in the OT there was no distinction between sin and crime; all sin was a crime.

The judges were charged with enforcing the law. WIF already explained this to you, so I will refrain from redundancy.
Law... sin... crime... same thing in the OT.

I didn't change a single word of what you posted, liar.
He never said you changed his post... he said you reworded his question in your response.

I am a member of no denomination. I am a Christian, period.
In your dreams and by your own standard.

The idea of murder had never even crossed God's mind, therefore He had no set punishment for it. After it happened He punished Cain with the first punishment He conceived. And then, later, He decided on a different punishment [execution] and it remained forever after. This proves you wrong.
I'm having difficulty with the invisible sky spirit not being able to anticipate the varieties of "sins" of which man was/is capable. Also, I cannot understand the invisible sky spirit punishing Cain for something he (Cain) had no way of knowing was "sin" (this is similar to the "first sin" of Eve and Adam). In the USofA laws are not made to punish "crime" ex post facto.

Your other problem is that you don't have the first clue as to why I am without sin. It is because Christ died for sin, and I am now free. If Christ had yet to die I would not be without sin.
This is arrogant of you. Have you "sinned" since your conversion?

And, as WIF explained, even if I was without sin, in your scenario I was not among the accusers so, according to the Law, I could not cast the first stone.
Cite the scripture stating your assertion of who could throw the "first" stone.
 

Cruciform

New member
You asked: *Does God also create fornicators, adulterers, rapists, and pedophiles?

Your question is founded on a false premise, that being gay or gay sex is immoral in Gods eyes and therefore classed with all other immoral behavior.
Yes, one of my premises is certainly that homosexual activity is as inherently immoral as the other sexually-disordered activities mentioned. This is clearly the moral teaching of the historic Christian Church from the beginning. Your response was to assert that this is a "false premise," but you've neglected to actually demonstrate your claim.

Besides, the mores ebb and flow across cultures and the span of time. Some things which you may practice now that are acceptable were immoral/sins 400 years ago.
Unfortunately, such an appeal to moral relativism is entirely inconsistent with the historic Christian view as well. (See answer just above.)

* Does observing that someone's behavior is immoral necessarily equate to "hating" them? Can it not rather indicate one's love and compassion for the person in question?

No, but some of these 5 year olds on this form hate them, its in there words.
Agreed. My point was simply to observe that pointing out one's error does not necessarily indicate "hatred" on the part of the observer.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
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