toldailytopic: Are we out of the recession or is the worst still yet to come?

[Memento Mori]

Not sure I get what you mean. :idunno:

Regulation or deregulation, the underlying scam has been the same for a very long time.

Regulation could prevent or help stem some of the problems caused by banks "creating" money. Lending to greatly on faith is a large problem which was part of the problem last time.

But yes, once bankers get in the pockets of the govt. officials, the game ends for us. Interests shift (no pun intended).

 

[chrysostom]

no wonder they get away with what they do

 

[elohiym]

Neither....it's a shell game. lain:

:up:

It certainly isn't a loan to the borrower.

The bookkeeping entries actually reflect a loan from the borrower to the bank, i.e. the bank receives an asset on its books from the borrower (the promissory note) and records a liability for that asset (meaning they owe the borrower money for the note).

The problem is that a bank does not own the promissory note without first giving consideration (buying the note with the loan money). Therefore, the bank takes the note illegally, and then loans back the value of the note to the borrower in the form of an IOU (not cash).

The bank does not come to the table with any money. No depositor's funds are loaned out to borrowers. The bank is merely getting the borrower's IOU for free and charging interest on it. Since none of this is disclosed to the borrower, the contract is voidable, if not void for illegality.

What is really sick about this process (as if it wasn't sick enough) is that only the principle of the loan is created, not the interest. Therefore, in order to pay the interest on all the debts, more debt has to be issued. In other words, people and governments have to keep borrowing or it hurts the economy.

The only way to fix the problem is to change the system. How? :idunno:

 

[The Berean]

It means you are working while the government, an illegal immigrant, and your unemployed neighbor are on a cruise to the Bahamas

:chuckle:

 

[elohiym]

Regulation could prevent or help stem some of the problems caused by banks "creating" money.

I disagree, because the system is corrupt beyond repair. I guess it depends on what you mean by regulation, and following what drastic measures.

The first step is to educate everyone about what is going on; but, rightly or wrongly, that will likely lead to everyone refusing to pay the fraudulent debt. Although, such an act of civil disobedience could possibly lead to unimaginable prosperity, it could also lead to a breakdown of society and extreme violence.

I advocate a peaceful solution, one that does not seek to undermine our government or divide the people (beyond apprehending the perpetrators). I would also advocate a truth and reconciliation committee and offer clemency to bankers and other officials in exchange for cooperation.

It's not likely that any of that will ever happen; and I personally believe that nothing will change until Christ comes. To me, we're waiting on a miracle from God to end this nightmare.

 

[elohiym]

no wonder they get away with what they do

Right. Just imagine if you had a monopoly on money creation. Pretty soon, you would own everything and everyone you wanted to own. That is what has happened, believe it or not.

 

[john w]

I counted 9 negative votes, 1 positive, 2 neutral. If you know anything about the stock market, and, specifically, "where it might be headed," this is generally is a "bullish indicator," i.e., the majority is usually wrong, contrarian indicator....When people are most pessimistic is when the market usualy goes up. Bubbles, and eventual sreep declines, normally happen when most are too optomistic. Acts 17:11 principle-"Do not take my word for it-check it out."

John Volker Greenspan Buffet

 

[The Barbarian]

I hope you're right, but I expect you aren't.

 

[john w]

I hope you're right, but I expect you aren't.

_
Make that 10 votes, as the bullish indicator continues to rise.

And hope is no substitute for a Full House.

 

[chrysostom]

Glenn Beck just explained the federal reserve buying government debt
and
it did include printing money by the treasury
and
giving it to the fed

 

[The Barbarian]

Make that 10 votes, as the bullish indicator continues to rise.

What's left of my portfolio has grown a good deal in the last few months. But it's not fully recovered by any means. And I understand that employment is a trailing indicator, but it seems to be trailing a little more than usual for a recession.

 

[john w]

What's left of my portfolio has grown a good deal in the last few months. But it's not fully recovered by any means. And I understand that employment is a trailing indicator, but it seems to be trailing a little more than usual for a recession.

-
Everyone do yourself a favor. Turn off your cell phones, go to the library, and search old magazines, newspapers,.................from years ago, during times of massive economic, political, stock market....uncertainty-look carefully at the headlines. They are usually the same in each respective era. Remember:bad news sells, and there is always bad news out there-it is just different.

I did the above, in 1990, and the headlines during the first "Mid East Crisis" were almost identical to the headlines during the oil shock of the 70's. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[elohiym]

Glenn Beck just explained the federal reserve buying government debt
and
it did include printing money by the treasury
and
giving it to the fed

Currency is only a fraction of the money supply, and it isn't printed without accountability (there are bookkeeping entries). The printed currency comes into existence, aside from the printing, in the same way I explained earlier (through an exchange of government bond for bank IOU)...

New dollars are issued when the Federal Reserve elects to fund the purchase of debt, primarily U.S. Treasury Bonds, by creating new reserves rather than financing the purchase with existing reserves. When the bond issuer spends the money, new dollars enter circulation.

In theory, Federal Reserve Notes are like checks: liabilities drawn on the Federal Reserve Bank. The Fed offsets these liabilities by holding U.S. Treasury Bonds as assets, which are backed by the U.S. Government's ability to levy taxes and repay. (Source.)

That is essentially what I claimed happens when money is "created," and currency is issued.

See also Money Supply.

U.S. currency is $829 billion dollars in circulation, with most of that being outside the U.S. As I said, that is only a fraction of the U.S. money supply, as shown in these figures.

So what Beck said may have been true (I didn't watch him), but that does not change anything about what I explained to you previously.

 

[Nick M]

I'm not convinced that the Dow is an indicator on the health of the economy.

It isn't. I agree.

The primary indicator of economic health is inflation. And Obama directly put us in the toilet on that one. Growth of the GNP, that is gross national product is a good indicator. GDP is secondary and usually refered to, which is the gross domestic product.

 

[The Barbarian]

Hmm... GDP has risen since June of last year, although the rate of growth is now falling as the business debt debacle develops.

 

[Nick M]

Hmm... GDP has risen since June of last year, although the rate of growth is now falling as the business debt debacle develops.

I am sure the 17% of unemployed agree with your warped view. There is no private sector growth, and there won't be any time soon. Cash for clunkers is not private sector, it was from the government, and is stealing. Although your raw data is not incorrect, what was spent being implied is.

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=321

 

[Persephone66]

I don't think it's going to get any better anytime soon. I'll start believing it is getting better when the empty storefronts and abandoned buildings around where I live start getting filled with business.

Seems like every week another place closes up. My partner and I have been talking about opening up a gaming store, but it seem like too big of a gamble in this economy.

 

[The Barbarian]

I am sure the 17% of unemployed agree with your warped view.

GDP is still rising and has been for a year (albeit at a declining rate, now). This is a separate issue from unemployment. Employment being one of the last things to improve, it's cold comfort to the unemployed that the economy is growing. But the fact remains.

There is no private sector growth, and there won't be any time soon.

I don't believe the government actually produces anything. From where do you think the rise in GDP is coming?

Cash for clunkers is not private sector, it was from the government, and is stealing. Although your raw data is not incorrect, what was spent being implied is.

Spending is not GDP.

 

[kmoney]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 11th, 2010 09:34 AM

toldailytopic: Are we out of the recession or is the worst still yet to come?

Depends on how you define "recession".

Yes. All this stimulus stuff is doing is delaying the inevitable. The worst is in the future.

 

[Frank Ernest]

But are they really connected?

Couldn't a government be spending responsibly while the populous is spending like drunken sailors with credit? (or vice versa)

Possible, but unlikely. Consider that the populous, drunken sailors with credit, elects the "responsible" government.

We've known about, and have been warned about, profligate consumer spending (credit) for decades. It shouldn't be surprising that we finally elected a group of our own to government.