ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

[glorydaz]

Please give me a defintion of the word tasso from any recognized Greek expert where the meaning is given as "set to receive" or something similiar.

According to Strong's the word means "to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):—addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set."

That definition fits perfectly with my view.

The LORD assigned eternal life to all who believed. And that assignment happened before anyone believed.

My "view" says hearing the Gospel fills us with gladness and we are disposed to believe. Same thing as happened to those Gentiles in that verse you quote. I'd even go so far as to say we become addicted to the word of eternal life as preached in the Gospel....the Gift of God. The Gospel is what determines whether we believe or not. Use your definition if you like. I still say it fits better than what you claim....that we were ordained to eternal life before we believed.

 

[Lon]

Article by Bob Enyart

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.

http://kgov.com/is-god-outside-of-time

Excerpts from article .....

- is timeless- in an eternal now - atemporal and outside of time - not was, nor will be, but only is - has no past - has no future. Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato. And the Platonists.

It is hard to argue with someone's pastor, so let me try carefully: This is assertion without the proof. It is a cloak'n'dagger or slight of hand for a proof (unintentional probably). A timeless God is 'given' in scripture: 2 Peter 3:8 If you are looking for 'trinity' in the bible, I believe it implicitly there but the exact word? It isn't, but we generally agree it 'could' be a fitting translation word for some scriptures given. Similarly, Timeless is a scriptural given. 2 Peter 3:8 2 Timothy 1:9 "Literally, before time began." So, unfortunately, I must disagree with Pastor Enyart. Scripture is this clear and, I think, ONLY an adherence to an open theology, would demand its opposite (not a slam, just 'why' I think such is given in the unequivocal tenor).

Spoiler

is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting

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- Forever and ever - The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Eternal - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore - Always lives - Forever - Continually - the eternal God - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end Of course ALL THESE are verbatim phrases from Scripture, some being repeated many times. NOT ONE MEANS TIMELESSNESS. Rather, they mean unending duration. So the Bible teaches the opposite of pagan Greek philosophy.

Scripture describes God's creation of matter and space, light and life, but not of time

There is Time in Heaven: - When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1). - When He opened the fifth seal [martyrs in heaven said]: "HOW LONG, O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…" (Rev. 6:9; 11:17-18) - …the tree of life… bore twelve fruits [a different one] EVERY MONTH (Rev. 22:2). - But this Man, AFTER He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… FROM THAT TIME WAITING TILL His enemies are [defeated] (Heb. 10:12-13). - As the LORD says, "I have held My peace A LONG TIME" (Isa. 42:14). - And [God will not punish demons] "before [their] time" (Mat. 8:29).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

My "view" says hearing the Gospel fills us with gladness and we are disposed to believe. Same thing as happened to those Gentiles in that verse you quote. I'd even go so far as to say we become addicted to the word of eternal life as preached in the Gospel....the Gift of God. The Gospel is what determines whether we believe or not. Use your definition if you like. I still say it fits better than what you claim....that we were ordained to eternal life before we believed.

So you are saying that they were disposed to eternal life?

What meaning do you place of the word "disposed" if that is its meaning in the verse?

 

[Danoh]

Please give me a defintion of the word tasso from any recognized Greek expert where the meaning is given as "set to receive" or something similiar.

According to Strong's the word means "to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):—addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set."

That definition fits perfectly with my view.

The LORD assigned eternal life to all who believed. And that assignment happened before anyone believed.

As one linguist put it (something I myself have often asserted to deaf ears) - words have no meaning, rather, they are assigned to meanings.

And that person still ended up off on the intended sense of those words in that passage.

For the same reason most usually end up off on such things - for their having failed to consider looking for the intended sense of such passages through that lens to their understanding - the lens that is - Romans 11:11.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It is hard to argue with someone's pastor, so let me try carefully: This is assertion without the proof. It is a cloak'n'dagger or slight of hand for a proof (unintentional probably). A timeless God is 'given' in scripture: 2 Peter 3:8

Taken out of context, sure it could mean that, but ripping a verse out of context is usually a bad idea.

But when you read the verse in context, it is clear that this is not saying God is timeless, but that God is powerful and patient beyond measure.

If you are looking for 'trinity' in the bible, I believe it implicitly there but the exact word? It isn't, but we generally agree it 'could' be a fitting translation word for some scriptures given. Similarly, Timeless is a scriptural given. 2 Peter 3:8 2 Timothy 1:9 "Literally, before time began." So, unfortunately, I must disagree with Pastor Enyart. Scripture is this clear and, I think, ONLY an adherence to an open theology, would demand its opposite (not a slam, just 'why' I think such is given in the unequivocal tenor).

The phrase in 2 Timothy 1:9 does not say "before time began." In fact, began isn't even on that chapter.

The phrase used is "πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων", literally "before time eternal."

 

[Ktoyou]

Yes, but the ordaining precedes the believing so the LORD must know who will believe before they actually do believe.

Right?

Does that not prove that God is not bound by time as we are?

I do not believe God ordains us; He may be able, yet He chooses to know what He needs to know, thus we have freewill.

 

[Danoh]

I do not believe God ordains us; He may be able, yet He chooses to know what He needs to know, thus we have freewill.

Here is a really great, simple study on that very subject, by Tracy Plessinger, a Mid-Acts Based Pastor-Teacher from a group within Mid-Acts a bit different on some things from the group I largely hold with in many of my own understandings.

But on the following, I could not agree with him more! :thumb:

"Why Did God Choose You?"

https://vimeo.com/26825920

https://vimeo.com/26825920

Rom. 14:5 - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[musterion]

Uh oh, somebody referring to Chomsky?

 

[Danoh]

Uh oh, somebody referring to Chomsky?

You're actually that dense, and ever "demon behind every bush" paranoid, aren't you?

:rotfl:

Lets try this again...r-e-a-l...s-l-o-w...

"And...that...person...still...ended...up...off...on...the...intended...sense...of...those...words...in..THAT...PASSAGE."

Seriously, m, thank God for Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

You sure know how to consistently magnify its obvious need. :chuckle:

 

[Derf]

I never said that the LORD ordained anything about them. But I did say that some people were ordained to eternal life before they believed.

Then what about their belief in the gospel was any different than what God did in the Garden? If God just looked to see what they would do with the gospel and predestined them to eternal life, then God must have looked forward to see what Adam and Eve would do and apply death to them. What's the difference?

(And sorry for such a delayed response--can't get on TOL all the time, and this thread is plenty active.)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then what about their belief in the gospel was any different than what God did in the Garden? If God just looked to see what they would do with the gospel and predestined them to eternal life, then God must have looked forward to see what Adam and Eve would do and apply death to them. What's the difference?

The difference is the fact that when the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge" of the LORD a figure of speech is being employed:

"Anthropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings" (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6-Figures of Speech)."​

My position is similiar to that of Calvinist Loraine Boettner stated here:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

Since no one is actually saved until they believe then they are not destined to salvation before they actually believe. Therefore, the scheme of salvation can only be described as being "open."

 

[glorydaz]

So you are saying that they were disposed to eternal life?

What meaning do you place of the word "disposed" if that is its meaning in the verse?

I meant they were disposed to hearing the Gospel which promises life, and thus believing which follows after the hearing. In fact, it puts me in mind of this verse.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I meant they were disposed to hearing the Gospel which promises life, and thus believing which follows after the hearing. In fact, it puts me in mind of this verse.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

What meaning do you put on the word "disposed"?

Besides that, do you believe that the LORD disposes some people to eternal life but not all?

 

[glorydaz]

What meaning do you put on the word "disposed"?

Besides that, do you believe that the LORD disposes some people to eternal life but not all?

I'm not sure I can explain it well enough to satisfy your persistent queries, dear brother, but I'll try by way of my own experience. I had heard all the basics of the Gospel before I was ever "well disposed" or open minded enough to "hear" it. I was not yet ready. I was not yet prepared adequately by the circumstances of my life. I was not yet seeking for answers concerning what was to come after this life on earth.

I take the verse that God "is not willing that any should perish" to mean He works within the circumstances of our life to lead us to the point where we might haply seek for Him. The goodness and kindness of God leads us to repentance... a change of mind...turning from unbelief to belief. His goodness in our life predisposes us (prepares us) to love Him in return, and our sorrows encourage us to call out to our Creator for help.

These Gentiles were filled with joy to hear that God was calling to them through the Gospel. They were well disposed (prepared) to hear that Good NEWS, which they had thought was only available to the Jews. I think God calls all men, but He doesn't "dispose" some people to hear or obtain eternal life. The Power is in His word (The Gospel), to which man must respond or reject in order to be saved or be lost.

That's the best I got, Jerry.....take it or leave it.

 

[Lon]

Taken out of context, sure it could mean that, but ripping a verse out of context is usually a bad idea.

But when you read the verse in context, it is clear that this is not saying God is timeless, but that God is powerful and patient beyond measure.



The phrase in 2 Timothy 1:9 does not say "before time began." In fact, began isn't even on that chapter.

The phrase used is "πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων", literally "before time eternal."

Spoiler

Much of the time, I agree with you but this verse must, necessarily stand or it isn't true and could not be said (my position).

As far as Aeon and respectively Aeon'eon, it is used (see link) as lifetime and lifetimes. I'm not Open View and cannot be, scripturally. It is our one area where agreement cannot happen. The word 'before' was used so literally, again, "Before time" is what it means. A lifetime and even lifetimes, are fixed and obviously created. I realize we both have presuppositions driving us as well as the context. I appreciate you and I agree most times on the contexts of scriptures together and adhere to that biblical hermeneutic. This time, we happen to disagree. I don't at all call into question your ability with scripture. You are as astute as ever and our difference is upon the mercy seat of God. In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

Then what about their belief in the gospel was any different than what God did in the Garden? If God just looked to see what they would do with the gospel and predestined them to eternal life, then God must have looked forward to see what Adam and Eve would do and apply death to them. What's the difference?

(And sorry for such a delayed response--can't get on TOL all the time, and this thread is plenty active.)

God cannot 'waste' effort. You & I 'try, attempt, work on it.' Such would assume 'freewill' of another, thus we'd be guessing as how best to proceed. With God, He knows us, there is no try. I realize it flys in the face of freewill, but I'm MORE interested in His will. Why? Because 'our' will is what got us in this mess in the first place. I'm more than happy to play a robot or puppet. Relationship is where we have meaning, not exercising 'rights' or 'power' which is largely involved in the 'will' discussion. Automaton matters not to me. Relationship does. John 15:5 I love and desire. I WANT the Lord pulling my strings. We all already know what happens when I try to pull my own. Whatever we believe about God, I know He is unwilling that any should perish, and that is enough for me (a little off the thread but somewhat intersects as well as gets back into the determinism side vs the freewill determinism side as related to time. :e4e: -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think God calls all men, but He doesn't "dispose" some people to hear or obtain eternal life. The Power is in His word (The Gospel), to which man must respond or reject in order to be saved or be lost.

You have me confused. Since the LORD wants all people to be saved why wouldn't He dispose all people to hear or obtain eternal life? Earlier you said:

I take the verse that God "is not willing that any should perish" to mean He works within the circumstances of our life to lead us to the point where we might haply seek for Him.

Why only some people?

 

[glorydaz]

You have me confused. Since the LORD wants all people to be saved why wouldn't He dispose all people to hear or obtain eternal life?

What more is God supposed to do than what He has already done? He did give us the ability to choose good over evil. He created us with the knowledge of Him in us. He made sure the things of God are clearly seen and understood by us all.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

But like the Jews in your verse, who professed themselves to be wise and were filled with envy, they are not disposed to hearing the Gospel of Grace that Paul preached. Acts 13:45 While the Gentiles who heard Paul's message heard it with joy. I consider it a matter of foolish PRIDE that keeps men from being disposed to hearing the Gospel when it's preached, as Paul tells us here.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

Earlier you said:



Why only some people?

Some love darkness more than the light....at least that's what the Scripture tells me.

I realize it isn't popular to even suggest that some people are somehow "better than others", but there are some who are just plain evil or too proud to hear the Gospel when it's preached. I see the Pride of Life rearing it's ugly head right here on this forum with claims of man's "obedience" being the way to salvation. Pride, envy, Lust....those are enticing draws for the unsaved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What more is God supposed to do than what He has already done?

According to your ideas the LORD disposes some to receive eternal life but not all.

Why not all?

Does He play favorites?

 

[Derf]

The difference is the fact that when the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge" of the LORD a figure of speech is being employed:

"Anthropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings" (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6-Figures of Speech)."​

My position is similiar to that of Calvinist Loraine Boettner stated here:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

Since no one is actually saved until they believe then they are not destined to salvation before they actually believe. Therefore, the scheme of salvation can only be described as being "open."

I've heard you say this before, but where do we get to draw the line regarding things that aren't really what God says they are? Why do WE get to draw that line?

I notice that you always go back to Boettner or someone else to quote instead of the bible to describe this idea of God being outside of time. And they don't seem to be able to present scripture for their assertions either.

While the concept might be correct, it isn't easily defended from scripture, which makes it suspect.

There are various scripture-based reasons that have been given why "past", "present", and "future" don't all happen at once for God, and they make more sense than the non-scripture-based Boettner narrative.

At the very least, God has to set aside His past-present-futureness to interact with us. So even heaven (which He created, and is to be destroyed??), where God reigns, supposedly, is locked in time. God might be the kind of timeless you describe, but if so, then those of us that will be saved have eternally been saved in God's mind.