ECT Those who believe will labor to enter the "Rest" of God"

vfirestormv

Member
Yeah, bad analogy. Try this one:

An unbeliever has never heard one word about Christ or the Bible in his entire life. He knows nothing other than what a preacher tells him, which is this: "Repent [meaning "stop sinning"] and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins."

First, Repent does not mean to stop sinning. Where is that definition at? It means to think differently or reconsider. A change of mind.

Psa_110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Is the Lord saying He will not stop sinning or He will not change His mind?

Secondly, water baptism does not save anyone. When I was saved I was baptized (washed) in the name of Jesus Christ. My water baptism was just an outward showing of my death, burial and resurrection in Christ.

Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Paul himself was baptized and baptized others, though not many as he didn't want them saying I am of Paul...
 

musterion

Well-known member
First, Repent does not mean to stop sinning. Where is that definition at? It means to think differently or reconsider. A change of mind.

I agree 200% and also believe that's what Peter meant, too. But many people (Christians) today think "repent" = "stop sinning." It's a plank of Lordship Salvation but is definitely not confined to L.S. So given that, just for the purpose of the analogy, assume that's what the preacher means by "repent" and that's what the unbeliever thinks it means...he's got to stop sinning to be saved.

Secondly, water baptism does not save anyone.
True, but without submitting to the water rite Peter spoke of, his hearers proved they did not believe his message, which was right in line with Mark 16:16. Today, that is absolutely not the case (even though every cult says it is).

So back to the unbeliever. He is told to believe and obey Acts 2:38 to be saved. He does so.

Is he saved?
 

Cross Reference

New member
First, Repent does not mean to stop sinning. Where is that definition at? It means to think differently or reconsider. A change of mind.

I am beginning to wonder if there are any born again Christians on these so-called, Christian forums. And now you. Not that I have been entirely in agreement with you and I am not because of your Calvinist bent, but you the came the closest until you didn't reply back to what I did disagree with. Heres gos:

Repent indeed does mean stop sinning and also go in a direction in your thinking otherwise, why the need to repent of anything???? You two damage a weak Christian more with this kind of uncertainty more than any two I have ever read. Do you actually believe you can go on sinning and still in be Christ even after you go in a different direction __ and a different direction for what that presume one is looking for salvation but looking in the wrong places trying to save himself! How do you know he is even looking for salvation? Jesus came to call sinners to repentance.

Personally, I would say you and that other guy, you both need to repent of your "dead-end" Calvinistic religion. But that is your business.
 

vfirestormv

Member
I agree 200% and also believe that's what Peter meant, too. But many people (Christians) today think "repent" = "stop sinning." It's a plank of Lordship Salvation but is definitely not confined to L.S. So given that, just for the purpose of the analogy, assume that's what the preacher means by "repent" and that's what the unbeliever thinks it means...he's got to stop sinning to be saved.

True, but without submitting to the water rite Peter spoke of, his hearers proved they did not believe his message, which was right in line with Mark 16:16. Today, that is absolutely not the case (even though every cult says it is).

So back to the unbeliever. He is told to believe and obey Acts 2:38 to be saved. He does so.

Is he saved?

I could never answer that, neither can you. The only one that could is God who knows the heart of man. If he is trusting in Christ then I would say yes. If he is trusting in his own self, stop sinning, he is going to become very frustrated in that he can't do it and I would say no. But again that is not my call. Bad theology doesn't always mean condemnation. There are many that have some wrong views that are saved in spite of themselves.

Edit for clarification: And just to clear up my message, I mean bad theology in the example that you gave of the preacher telling him to repent, meaning to stop sinning. Not What Peter taught in Acts 2:38
If he follows what Peter is talking about to repent, change his mind about sin and toward God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which means in the authority of. And according to He (Christ) will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, then yes he is saved.
 
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vfirestormv

Member
I am beginning to wonder if there are any born again Christians on these so-called, Christian forums. And now you. Not that I have been entirely in agreement with you and I am not because of your Calvinist bent, but you the came the closest until you didn't reply back to what I did disagree with. Heres gos:

Repent indeed does mean stop sinning and also go in a direction in your thinking otherwise, why the need to repent of anything???? You two damage a weak Christian more with this kind of uncertainty more than any two I have ever read. Do you actually believe you can go on sinning and still in be Christ even after you go in a different direction __ and a different direction for what that presume one is looking for salvation but looking in the wrong places trying to save himself! How do you know he is even looking for salvation? Jesus came to call sinners to repentance.

Personally, I would say you and that other guy, you both need to repent of your "dead-end" Calvinistic religion. But that is your business.

Firstly, I am no Calvinist at all. TULIP is so far from my view of doctrine that it isn't even close.
Secondly, Did the Lord say "I will not stop sinning"? Or did He say "I will not change my mind"?
Now I do believe that once I repent, change my mind toward God and about sin, and believe in faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, that I will be dead to sin and alive to Christ. I am no longer a slave to sin and I will have good works toward God. Not for my salvation but because of it. Though I will still war, as Paul did, with this flesh. Meaning yes I still sin. John said if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1jn 1:8
If I were to willfully and constantly practice in sin, then chances are I was never saved in the first place. But again, that is not my call.
For me to say that I have to quit sinning, I would have to say that Israel needed to obey the law to be saved. Neither is true. The law was our schoolmaster to show us we can not do it. Otherwise, why send a savior?
Surely you are not saying that you can save yourself.
For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yeah, bad analogy. Try this one:

An unbeliever has never heard one word about Christ or the Bible in his entire life. He knows nothing other than what a preacher tells him, which is this: "Repent [meaning "stop sinning"] and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins."

Now that's a biblical gospel right? It's the good news Peter preached right there in Acts 2. But Peter said nothing about Christ's DYING FOR the sinner's sins, nor of His burial and resurrection from the dead for the sinner's justification. Peter preached nothing that Paul said is the content of God's salvation message for today, and the preacher in our analogy doesn't either. All the unbeliever hears is the blue part above, and he truly, sincerely believes it, is water baptized, and considers himself forgiven and saved, and waits for the promised gift of the Holy Spirit.

Question: Is that lost person saved by sincerely obeying Acts 2:38?

If he had been fighting against the truth and at the preaching of the truth, he believes the message and asks what he must do to be saved and does what he is told in Acts 2:38 then he receives the Holy Spirit of salvation.

He is saved and becomes a true member of the Church of Jesus.--

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

he is then told he must labor to enter into complete rest in Him who has saved him--

Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


LA
 

Cross Reference

New member
Firstly, I am no Calvinist at all. TULIP is so far from my view of doctrine that it isn't even close.
Secondly, Did the Lord say "I will not stop sinning"? Or did He say "I will not change my mind"?
Now I do believe that once I repent, change my mind toward God and about sin, and believe in faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, that I will be dead to sin and alive to Christ. I am no longer a slave to sin and I will have good works toward God.

Good! And when the temptation/test/trial comes and you fail, what is your accuse?
 

vfirestormv

Member
Good! And when the temptation/test/trial comes and you fail, what is your accuse?

Not sure what you mean? do you mean accuse or my excuse?
Either way I will not and can not fail because I am no longer a slave to sin, Christ has freed me of that and I am a bond servant (slave) to Christ. And if I am His, bought with a price in His precious blood, there is nothing, no man, no principality, neither death, nor life, nor powers, etc... let me just quote the verse.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
.
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
Yeah, bad analogy. Try this one:

An unbeliever has never heard one word about Christ or the Bible in his entire life. He knows nothing other than what a preacher tells him, which is this: "Repent [meaning "stop sinning"] and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins."

Now that's a biblical gospel right? It's the good news Peter preached right there in Acts 2. But Peter said nothing about Christ's DYING FOR the sinner's sins, nor of His burial and resurrection from the dead for the sinner's justification. Peter preached nothing that Paul said is the content of God's salvation message for today, and the preacher in our analogy doesn't either. All the unbeliever hears is the blue part above, and he truly, sincerely believes it, is water baptized, and considers himself forgiven and saved, and waits for the promised gift of the Holy Spirit.

Question: Is that lost person saved by sincerely obeying Acts 2:38?

Note that Acts 3: 36 speaks of receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit . . . not salvation and deliverance

Salvation and deliverance comes to the Jews (or anyone else for that matter) only when they become adopted children of God.

Romans: 8 verse: 23 KJV N.T., confirms that those with the first fruit of the Holy Spirit are still incomplete. They still groan for the adoption as children of God.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is also described as the first fruit of the Holy Spirit. This is to move one who is "dead to his own spirit" (i.e. the dead) into becoming "aware of his own spirit" (i.e. born again). Each person has a natural man (or physical body) and an inward man (or spirit body). The Jews at that time were dead to their own inward man or spirit bodies (they were called 'the dead'). They were aware of only their natural or physical bodies (this is why they sought physical signs for every thing).

To receive the first gift of the Holy Spirit is to be become 'born again'. Becoming 'born again' is compared to a second birth, a spirit birth. This is simply the act of becoming aware of or awakened to, one's own spirit or inward man. This is not salvation and deliverance.

The first birth is the physical birth. This includes awareness of one's physical body or natural man and functionality through the faculties of one's physical body. A person who is awakened to and aware of only this side of his make up is described as 'the dead'.

The next birth is describe as a spiritual birth. This is described as being 'born a second time' or being 'born again'. This is the act of 'the dead, becoming aware of or awakened to his or her inward man or spirit. All humans, including 'the dead' has an inward man or spirit (together with his or her natural man or physical body). This is why becoming 'born again' is simply an act of awakening to or becoming aware of this spirit side of their make up.

When a person becomes aware of his own inward man or spirit or spirit body, he ceases being 'the dead' and the faculties of his spirit body becomes functional to him. The faculties af each person's spirit body varies. These are described as Gift of the Spirit. When one ceases to be 'the dead' by becoming spiritually aware, one is given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. This is just a theoretical intellectual introduction to and understanding of, one's own spirit and the working of one's own spirit and the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of God and the working of these Spirits. This is not salvation and deliverance. On is not yet a child of God. This is not a big accomplishment. There are more steps to accomplish before one becomes saved and delivered.

'The dead' (i.e. the spiritually dead) cannot be and are not called to be Christians. Only the spiritually aware (the born again) can be called to be Christians. They are not yet chosen (i.e. they are not yet Christians). This is not a big accomplishment. There are more steps to accomplish before they become chosen (i.e. before they becomes Christians.

To receive the first fruit of the Holy Spirit simply means to become awakened to or aware of one's inward man or one's own spirit. This also brings one into awareness of the intuitive faculties of one's own spirit body. These are one's Gifts of the Spirit. This is very elementary step that is far from salvation and deliverance. Jesus confirmed that evil things can flow from such a person (heart) and such a one can still do evil things even though he may practice his gifts of the Spirit. This is confirmed by the following:

[SIZE=+1]Matthew 7 KJV N.T.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus also confirmed that all prophesying and healing skills and other Gifts comes from only the Holy Ghost. Therefore the people spoken about in the above verses had received the first fruit of the Holy Spirit and they were practicing them. They had the first fruits of the Holy Spirit. Yet Jesus did not know them and Jesus confirmed that they worked iniquities.

Fact is Jesus did not lead their works, they did their own thing. After getting the first fruits of the Holy Spirit they went their own way. They did not move to adapt Jesus in His Spirit as their Lord and Savior. They did not become adopted children of God. They remained like fallen angels or fallen Adam. They did not seek communion with Jesus within each of their own hearts or spirit so as to know what the Spirit of Jesus had in mind for each of them to know, pray for say and do and so, be led into their works by this information and guidance. They simply practiced their gift of the Spirit on just everyone or any one according to their own ideas of righteousness or whim.
[/SIZE]


After receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit or the first fruit of the Holy Spirit each Jew must achieve and do the following other things before he or she earns salvation and deliverance:

After receiving the first fruit of the Holy Spirit, each Jew must discern the Spirit of Jesus within each of their own hearts or spirits.

Then each of them must discern precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for each of them to know, pray for, say and do by looking within or search each of their own hearts or spirits.

Then each of them must be led into all their works by precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for each of them to know, pray for, say and do, as discerned in the above manner. And each of these Jews must be led into their works by unconditionally obeying precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for each of them to know, pray for, say and do, even if he or she has to transgress the Ten Commandments. This is how they are called. (Think you got many Jewish takers?) Think many did what was required and became chosen? Fact is Jesus predicted that many will be indeed called but only a few will make it.

However it is only when each Jews is led by the Spirit of Jesus in the above manner that any of those Jews would (one by one) become adopted children of God and will, therefore, be saved and delivered. Jesus did not see much hope for the great majority of Jew.

 
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heir

TOL Subscriber
Gentiles simply means nations, where the ungodly lived.

Paul preached to both Jews and greeks.

LA
So you say, but Paul's preaching to Jews and Greeks in his provoking ministry still left out the "you Gentiles" like that of the Ephesians to whom Paul was later sent (Acts 22:21 KJV) and wrote to (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV). It had NOTHING to do with geography!
 

vfirestormv

Member
So you say, but Paul's preaching to Jews and Greeks in his provoking ministry still left out the "you Gentiles" like that of the Ephesians to whom Paul was later sent (Acts 22:21 KJV) and wrote to (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV). It had NOTHING to do with geography!

Just where does the supposed division start? Where, what chapter does Paul start preaching this different gospel? Where we would then have the church of the Jews and now the church of the gentiles?
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So you say, but Paul's preaching to Jews and Greeks in his provoking ministry still left out the "you Gentiles" like that of the Ephesians to whom Paul was later sent (Acts 22:21 KJV) and wrote to (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV). It had NOTHING to do with geography!

Paul to the Ephesians---

Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
Act 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."

Think about that.


Act 19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.


Act 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.
Act 20:17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.
Act 20:18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,
Act 20:19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;
Act 20:20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
Act 20:21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
Act 20:32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Christ to the Ephesians--

Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
Rev 2:2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Rev 2:3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

LA
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Just where does the supposed division start?
What division?
Where, what chapter does Paul start preaching this different gospel?
Paul preached the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) to the Jew first and also to the Greek until the gospel of Christ was fully preached by the writing of Romans (Romans 15:19 KJV) and preached the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 KJV) which is basically an extension of the gospel of Christ as in it's the same good news, that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day, but to all men (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV, Titus 2:11 KJV) and not that it was a mystery hidden in the scriptures (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) as in "according to the scriptures", but hid in God until the dispensation of the grace of God was given to Paul to usward.
Where we would then have the church of the Jews and now the church of the gentiles?
Which church are you talking about? Moses' church, the Lord's "My church" or the church which is His Body, the body of Christ?
 

musterion

Well-known member
Paul to the Ephesians---

Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
Act 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."

Think about that.
Those were water baptized Jews, not Ephesian gentiles.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The 12 disciples of the Ephesians were the beginning of the church there which consisted of both Jews and Gentiles as with all of the churches everywhere.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.


Act 20:21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

LA
 

musterion

Well-known member
The 12 disciples of the Ephesians were the beginning of the church there

They weren't disciples of the Ephesians, they were disciples of John.

There is nothing that even suggests they were the beginning of the Ephesian assembly.

Stop adding to Scripture.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
They weren't disciples of the Ephesians, they were disciples of John.

of the Ephesians means they were Ephesians in Ephesis--



There is nothing that even suggests they were the beginning of the Ephesian assembly.

Stop adding to Scripture.

You are taking away from scripture.

The Ephesian assembly lived and met in Ephesis.

Paul went there and began the church there, preaching the gospel to both Jew and Gentile.

LA
 
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