The Word Made Flesh

keypurr

Well-known member
That's an interesting thought. [Ecc 12:7 KJV] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Does that mean
  1. That the "spirit", once given, remains a separate entity at death, and is in the presence of God?
  2. Or is the "spirit" a part of God at the first, is given in measure to enliven the flesh temporarily, then becomes part of God again?
  3. Or perhaps the "spirit" is authority/power to live, which God takes away when life ceases?

I lean toward either the second or third option, at least for that verse's meaning, since the first implies that all people, once dead, are in the presence of God as spirits. But I don't think any of the above applied the same to Jesus as they would to us. The last one could apply if Jesus is God, because that authority/power is retracted from the body, but not from Jesus (in whatever form he was after his human body died) as God.
Interesting thought indeed. In the case of Jesus I believe that he held the very special express image spirit. That spirit was used at the creation and had glory in the heavenly host. It is godlike . It is unlike the spirit that is in the breath, the giver of life. Or is it?

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Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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I disagree BR, your faith is in the church. You believe what they tell you. And that is only part of the story of God and his Christ. I left the church because there is a lack of evidence for their doctrines. 90% of the Protestant doctrines come from the RCC. And they are lies.

Wrong Keypurr, My faith is in my relationship with Jesus Christ. Isn't that what Christianity is really all about. What good does a building do. What matters is what happens outside the building
 

Word

BANNED
Banned
Adam was made flesh.

Is this true or is this false?

When a Christian says to you
that Jesus is the word made flesh
always ask them this question.

These so called today Christians
makeup whatever they want to believe
and preach and teach it as the truth.

It is very easy to prove it all false.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Wrong Keypurr, My faith is in my relationship with Jesus Christ. Isn't that what Christianity is really all about. What good does a building do. What matters is what happens outside the building
Ok friend, we agree somewhat, but I can not base my faith on just half truths. It's where your heart is that is important.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

Word

BANNED
Banned
Adam was made flesh.

Is this true or is this false?

When a Christian says to you
that Jesus is the word made flesh
always ask them this question.

These so called today Christians
makeup whatever they want to believe
and preach and teach it as the truth.

It is very easy to prove it all false.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Interesting thought indeed. In the case of Jesus I believe that he held the very special express image spirit. That spirit was used at the creation and had glory in the heavenly host. It is godlike . It is unlike the spirit that is in the breath, the giver of life. Or is it?

At this point we get into speculation--which isn't always a bad a thing to do, in my opinion, but it needs to be tempered by scripture. Your question about what the spirit was like and which spirit was which should give you pause--do you trust your own self to determine what God is like? Or His offspring? Or do you trust what He has revealed about Himself, being careful to keep your own imaginations separate from His revelations ([Gen 8:21b KJV] ...for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; ...)?

That's why so many on this site demand scripture on new or competing ideas--and that's very healthy. For instance, what is "the very special express image spirit" (TVSEIS) and where is it described? Can we know who all has this TVSEIS? How do we know who has it and who doesn't. And what qualities does it impart to the bearer?

Is the TVSEIS different from the image God made man in ([Gen 1:27 KJV] So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.)? The one that God re-iterated was on man after 1500 years ([Gen 9:6 KJV] Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.)? That image of God was certainly special (no other creature had it), and it was certainly the image of God ("express"). Is there one that is more special ("very")? If it was only on Jesus Christ, and makes him unique among image bearers, is that different enough in some way to allow humans to worship him when we know we are to worship only God--as Jesus seemed to allow?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
For instance, what is "the very special express image spirit" (TVSEIS) and where is it described?

The phrase "express image" is used one time in the NT.

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high... (Hebrews 1:3)​

The phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek word "charakter" from which we get the English word character. Jesus had his Father's character and nature as opposed to the human's carnal nature. (Romans 8:7)

Jesus was the express image of the Father in terms of his character and nature which the Father has appointed Jesus Christ to develop in us.
 

Derf

Well-known member
The phrase "express image" is used one time in the NT.

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high... (Hebrews 1:3)​

The phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek word "charakter" from which we get the English word character. Jesus had his Father's character and nature as opposed to the human's carnal nature. (Romans 8:7)

Jesus was the express image of the Father in terms of his character and nature which the Father has appointed Jesus Christ to develop in us.
Thanks jamie. And I agree with keypurr that it was very special ("unique", perhaps, as in "only"). But put all that with "spirit", and I question what is meant by it. Plus I'm wondering where kp is going with the creation part.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Thanks jamie. And I agree with keypurr that it was very special ("unique", perhaps, as in "only"). But put all that with "spirit", and I question what is meant by it. Plus I'm wondering where kp is going with the creation part.

Paul explains that humans are made up of three component parts. There is spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the human spirit described in
1 Corinthians 2:11.

We have the capacity for seven senses, five physical and two spiritual. The spiritual senses are the human spirit and God's Spirit. A person is not complete without God's Spirit through which knowledge of God is communicated.
 

Lon

Well-known member
If Jesus was an immortal soul then he did not die. However, dead men don't talk, walk, or resurrect themselves.
So you either believe you are smart, thus ignore what scripture says, or you believe what scripture says and try to have it makes sense, but even if it doesn't, you believe it any way, because this is exactly what God says. There has to come a time when you and I get off the throne if He is to sit there. If you won't allow it, this is ever the problem with this kind of mentality. Take Greek or please believe me that you are wrong: Jesus said He'd take it up again and it is exactly this clear in that language. It carries the exact translation "I take up." If you have any prowess with any language other than English, you['d] know the verbs are this exacting. They definitely are in Greek.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
At this point we get into speculation--which isn't always a bad a thing to do, in my opinion, but it needs to be tempered by scripture. Your question about what the spirit was like and which spirit was which should give you pause--do you trust your own self to determine what God is like? Or His offspring? Or do you trust what He has revealed about Himself, being careful to keep your own imaginations separate from His revelations ([Gen 8:21b KJV] ...for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; ...)?

I trust what has be revealed to me through prayerful study of his words. Hebrews speaks of God's son that laid the foundation of the Universe. It speaks of the Express image of God, keeping in mind that God is spirit this son is also spirit. Col 1 tells us that he is the firstborn of all creatures. So what do we see? I see a created copy of the most high who was given the fullness of the Father. I see a godlike creature that God calls son. Heb 10:5 tells us that that spirit needed a body and one was provided for him.


That's why so many on this site demand scripture on new or competing ideas--and that's very healthy. For instance, what is "the very special express image spirit" (TVSEIS) and where is it described? Can we know who all has this TVSEIS? How do we know who has it and who doesn't. And what qualities does it impart to the bearer?

Consider Heb 1:3:

(NRSV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(NASB) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

The express image is the exact likeness of God, a spirit being. He took the form of man to die for us. If you see the nature of this being you see who God is. This spirit son was anointed into Jesus, it came with the power of the Father. Col 1, Phil 2. Read all of Heb 1 and see where the most high call him "O Elohim". This is the son that was SENT from heaven, Jesus was the body that held it. When they were joined God declared that this was his son.



Is the TVSEIS different from the image God made man in ([Gen 1:27 KJV] So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.)? The one that God re-iterated was on man after 1500 years ([Gen 9:6 KJV] Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.)? That image of God was certainly special (no other creature had it), and it was certainly the image of God ("express"). Is there one that is more special ("very")? If it was only on Jesus Christ, and makes him unique among image bearers, is that different enough in some way to allow humans to worship him when we know we are to worship only God--as Jesus seemed to allow?

Yes the express image, spirit son of God, is the only one created in the true likeness of the Father. Mankind was made in the image of God but in what way? His ability to think and rationalize. Jesus Christ is very unique, he is a godlike spirit who gave up his high position in heaven to become flesh in the body of Jesus. Being a creation he could die on the cross. The perfect Lamb, our Lord.

I enjoy your post friend you seem to be a thinking person.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Thanks jamie. And I agree with keypurr that it was very special ("unique", perhaps, as in "only"). But put all that with "spirit", and I question what is meant by it. Plus I'm wondering where kp is going with the creation part.

I am trying to show that the Universe was created by God through this express spirit. That it was not a man who laid the foundation. I want folks to see that Jesus did not pre exist but the spirit being in him did. There was a son that was sent and one hat was born and they became as one.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
So you either believe you are smart, thus ignore what scripture says, or you believe what scripture says and try to have it makes sense, but even if it doesn't, you believe it any way, because this is exactly what God says. There has to come a time when you and I get off the throne if He is to sit there. If you won't allow it, this is ever the problem with this kind of mentality. Take Greek or please believe me that you are wrong: Jesus said He'd take it up again and it is exactly this clear in that language. It carries the exact translation "I take up." If you have any prowess with any language other than English, you['d] know the verbs are this exacting. They definitely are in Greek.

For the record the Aramaic English New Testament is about the same as the Greek on this topic.
 

Lon

Well-known member
The phrase "express image" is used one time in the NT.
:nono: Hebrews 1:3 Colossians 1:15 John 10:30; 14:9 and John 1:18 is close.
who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high... (Hebrews 1:3)​

The phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek word "charakter" from which we get the English word character. Jesus had his Father's character and nature as opposed to the human's carnal nature. (Romans 8:7)
Colossians is εἰκών (eikon; icon): the thing to look at for the definition of the other, thus Jesus is who one is to look at to see and grasp God. He is God by representation.
:nono: It is where we get 'character' but the Greek word is derived from engraving an image by copy, such as a Xerox χαρακτὴρ. Jesus is 'an exact of 'what one would see as God.'

Jesus was the express image of the Father in terms of his character and nature which the Father has appointed Jesus Christ to develop in us.
Again, today's rendition of 'character' in English means: what makes me, me (distinctive). But in Koine, it didn't have this English derivative. It mean 'engraved image' of the one it represents. The verb 'characterize' means 'to engrave a copy' which is kin to χαρακτὴρ
 

keypurr

Well-known member
I'm sorry that the Church failed you.

Thanks for your concern my friend but I believe they did me a great favor.
They got me to seek more about who he really is.

And that got me in a deep love for my God and my Lord. I am at peace with them. I trust their judgement of my actions. At my age I expect to see him soon and I fear not. This world is not my home, I am just passing through.......
 

keypurr

Well-known member
:nono: Hebrews 1:3 Colossians 1:15 John 10:30; 14:9 and John 1:18 is close.
Colossians is εἰκών (eikon; icon): the thing to look at for the definition of the other, thus Jesus is who one is to look at to see and grasp God. He is God by representation.
:nono: It is where we get 'character' but the Greek word is derived from engraving an image by copy, such as a Xerox χαρακτὴρ. Jesus is 'an exact of 'what one would see as God.'

Again, today's rendition of 'character' in English means: what makes me, me (distinctive). But in Koine, it didn't have this English derivative. It mean 'engraved image' of the one it represents. The verb 'characterize' means 'to engrave a copy' which is kin to χαρακτὴρ


The AENT reads Heb 1:3 as:

3.who is the splendor of His glory and the exact image of his nature, and upholds all by the power of His Word; and by his Qnoma he made a purification of sins and sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Qnoma in the notes mean "Occurrence of the singular Divine Nature".
 
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