The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Derf]

Of course grace is a gift---it is undeserved. But that grace comes through faith, and faith itself is a gift. You are simply splitting hairs.

Otherwise known as "rightly dividing".

 

[Arial]

Otherwise known as "rightly dividing".

Splitting hairs is not rightly dividing.

 

[Hoping]

Sounds like the same kind of thing Peter said were too onerous for the Jews. How will you know if you've achieved them all?

Do turning from sin, getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and remaining faithful unto death sound "onerous"?

Faith alone is what is required of us, but faith is not alone in us.

Faith will lead one to do the afore mentioned things.
I'm just glad we no longer have to do the "works of the Law" that Paul preached against.

 

[Hoping]

Do you realize that every single false religion in the world believes man has to do something to earn his salvation?

Do you realize that accepting Jesus as the Son of God is something we must do?
That believing a doctrine is something we must do?
Isn't a doctrine where you musn't do anything something you feel we must do?

After the cross, Grace came and salvation is a gift....freely given and must be freely received.

I wish all men would do that receiving.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How is that death accomplished?
Rom 6:3-6 tells us..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Our death for our sins is accomplished by our immersion" into Christ and into His death...by water baptism.

Salvation is a Gift of God. You can't buy it, you can't steal it, you can't trade for it, you can't do one single thing to earn it.....not one single good thing that you have done will count toward your salvation. One very good reason....so that no one could boast.

I agree.
But murderers, adulterers, liars, and any other kind of miscreant will not inherit eternal life.
No matter what they believe.
The doctrine of "do nothing to be saved" simply leads to a life spent refusing to reject temptation.
It is counter-productive.
Refusal to kill, commit adultery, lie, and steal, etc. will count toward our salvation.
As those who don't refuse show they have no faith.

 

[Hoping]

No, those are not what Paul considered works. Works are anything we do in our body.

You will need to back that up with scriptures.
Paul mentioned only the works of the Law not being necessary for salvation.
Circumcision and dietary laws come to mind.

Even any good works....they do not count for salvation. You just can't DO what only Jesus did on the Cross.

I have been baptized into what Jesus did on the cross.
I died there with Christ, was buried with Him, and was raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:3-7 spell it out, with verse 7 supplying the proof..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

You're confusing works for salvation and works that may come after salvation, and those works can't even be counted as ours, since any fruit we have is the Spirit's.

As I see salvation occurring only after my name is found in the book of life, on the day of judgement, my salvation is still pending.
So all I do is "for salvation".
If I commit murder, tell a lie, or steal from someone, my faith is made void.

 

[Hoping]

Do you really think this sounds like it's talking about works of the law?
Remember, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Yes, it does.
It is written...

1. Romans 3:27
   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
2. Romans 9:32
   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
3. Galatians 2:16
   Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
4. Galatians 3:2
   This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
5. Galatians 3:5
   He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith.
6. Galatians 3:10
   For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
   
   Six times the words "works of the law" are in the bible.
7. 
   
8. I also found this from Paul..."But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:20)
9. That is three things we must DO.

 

[Hoping]

Saved by grace through faith.
There is nothing else required for salvation in this day and age.
It's very important to figure out what dispensation you're in.

If you say Christ is IN YOU, then you contributed nothing to your salvation. You merely believed the Gospel.

If you claim "so many things are necessary for salvation", then you have not yet accepted God's free gift of salvation.

Col. 1:25-27
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

If you would like to discuss dispensations, I'm in the dispensation of perfection, by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoping]

How long are you going to remain under the law?

I have been free of the Law of Moses for nearly fourteen years.
As it is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 9-10)
I stopped all of that when my flesh was crucified with Christ...at my water baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:3-6 details it.
Gal 5:24 makes reference to it..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

 

[Hoping]

Except that the Bible says it is by grace, and through faith, and that faith is a gift of God. The very Greek word translated faith in that passage indicates something that is given because it comes from outside of us. That does not mean it is forced on us. By logic, if it is forced, it is not real. It is a working of the Holy Spirit (John 3) on a person that opens the eyes of their understanding, removes the hard heart replacing it with a heart of flesh, so that when they hear the gospel, they choose----not to believe, but choose Christ.

Do you consider yourself forced to be a Christian?
That is the doctrine you espouse.
God gave you faith to believe what nobody else believes.

I chose to believe of my own volition.
That happened because, by the grace of God, I heard a message of love.

BTW, choosing is a work, in your doctrine.
It is forbidden.

 

[Hoping]

The faith given is faith (belief, and clinging to) something specific. All of which Paul has already given before this particular passage. In brief---that would be the cross---the life death and resurrection and ascension of Jesus to redeem those who depend on Him for salvation.

Careful there...some consider "depending" as a work for salvation.

 

[Hoping]

I'm not "sin free", but I am freed from sin ever since I believed the gospel of my salvation.

And there is the difference between what your doctrine can accomplish and what the doctrine which is according to Godliness can do.
My flesh(ly mind) is dead and buried, with Christ.
I thank God for freeing me of sinning.

 

[Hoping]

Of course grace is a gift---it is undeserved. But that grace comes through faith, and faith itself is a gift. You are simply splitting hairs.

I'ld rather think they "arrive" simultaneously.
Hairs-width separation indeed.

 

[Right Divider]

And there is the difference between what your doctrine can accomplish and what the doctrine which is according to Godliness can do.
My flesh(ly mind) is dead and buried, with Christ.
I thank God for freeing me of sinning.

You have not achieved a state of sinless perfection. But you have certainly believed many falsehoods.

 

[Hoping]

You have not achieved a state of sinless perfection. But you have certainly believed many falsehoods.

Achieved isn't the right word, as it is a gift.
A promised result of obedience to God.
It is the gift of God, by faith that His other gifts are real.
Repentance from sin makes a man an ex-sinner.
Baptism using water, for the remission of past sins sanctifies a man.
Only a clean vessel will be occupied by the Holy Ghost.
That baptism is also how the flesh is crucified so a new creature who walks after the Spirit will emerge from the burial of baptism.
How can a man who is dead sin anymore?
The new man is born of God's seed, and cannot bring forth evil fruit.

 

[Arial]

I'ld rather think they "arrive" simultaneously.
Hairs-width separation indeed.

Let me try it this way: grace and faith are two completely different things. Though in the case of saving faith they go hand in hand. Faith in the person and work of Jesus is necessary for salvation. It is because of God's grace that He gives us faith. We do not have that faith originating within us. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, (1 Cor 2:13-14; John 6:63) and requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So these things though distinct, occur congruently. The rebirth (indwelling of the Spirit), faith to believe the gospel, justification.

Rightly dividing: orthotomeo (Strong's) To cut straight, to cut straight ways. proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course.

Splitting hairs: to make petty, unnecessarily fine distinctions and quibble over them.

 

[Arial]

Careful there...some consider "depending" as a work for salvation.

We depend on Him when we are saved. And that dependance comes from the faith and is part of the faith.

 

[Right Divider]

Baptism using water, for the remission of past sins sanctifies a man.

Nope... Paul NEVER writes to the body of Christ that we should get wet.

Only a clean vessel will be occupied by the Holy Ghost.

Christ cleansed me by His blood. That's the only cleaning that I need.

That baptism is also how the flesh is crucified so a new creature who walks after the Spirit will emerge from the burial of baptism.

No water ceremony for the body of Christ. Paul says that there is ONE baptism and it's NOT water.

How can a man who is dead sin anymore?

He can't.

The new man is born of God's seed, and cannot bring forth evil fruit.

You need the reread Romans.

 

[Arial]

Do you consider yourself forced to be a Christian?
That is the doctrine you espouse.
God gave you faith to believe what nobody else believes.

No.
No it isn't. You call it force, I call it grace.
Well plenty of people besides me believe, but that aside, do you believe? Is that because poured His grace over you, or is it because you were smart enough to make the right choice?

I chose to believe of my own volition.
That happened because, by the grace of God, I heard a message of love.

Are you sure about that, or did it just feel that way to you because you are a human and think like a human and can only see things, (like all humans) from a human perspective?
So His grace was the message, not love itself?

BTW, choosing is a work, in your doctrine.
It is forbidden.

Yes choosing is a work if that choosing is of a person's own volition that acquires salvation for them. We do not choose to have faith. In my doctrine a person is given the faith, then they hear the gospel, or it is given to them when they hear the gospel, and when they hear it, they believe it. Then they choose Christ to worship and follow.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you realize that accepting Jesus as the Son of God is something we must do?
That believing a doctrine is something we must do?
Isn't a doctrine where you musn't do anything something you feel we must do?

I wish all men would do that receiving.

Nope. Believing is something that happens to us when we are presented with truth.
If I look outside and see it's raining....thus believing it's raining....is that something I do?

Of course not.

 

[glorydaz]

Except that the Bible says it is by grace, and through faith, and that faith is a gift of God. The very Greek word translated faith in that passage indicates something that is given because it comes from outside of us. That does not mean it is forced on us. By logic, if it is forced, it is not real. It is a working of the Holy Spirit (John 3) on a person that opens the eyes of their understanding, removes the hard heart replacing it with a heart of flesh, so that when they hear the gospel, they choose----not to believe, but choose Christ.

No, that faith is not a gift of God.

Salvation is the gift when we put our faith in the blood (Grace).
Saved by the blood through faith.
Saved by Grace through faith.

The gift of God is eternal life.
Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;