ECT The resurrection... specifically, the rapture.

[Livelystone]

One of the unfortunate aspects of the format of this forum finds any given post on any given thread bringing it briefly to the attention of those who can't be bothered to read the whole thread but feel compelled to make a pronouncements about it nonetheless. Hopefully this thread won't be totally derailed by such offerings.

I asked you nicely to show me my error, and even though you refused to do so I accepted you at your word that I was wrong and I apologized to you.

Just because you are not up to accepting it is not my fault or problem. Neither is it a fault of the format being used within the forum.

One should not have to read another persons birth certificate to know where they are coming from......... it should show within the majority of their words and actions

 

[heir]

There will never be a physical removal of the church (or a significant portion of it) off of the earth at any time.

There most certainly will be a catching up!

1 Thessalonians 4:161-18 KJV

Anybody who thinks there will be has been duped, and is furthering the desires of the enemies of God. They are contributing to keeping the church from the truth and obtaining the fulness of their inheritance

How many more blessings is there than ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ? Ephesians 1:3 KJV

 

[Livelystone]

There most certainly will be a catching up!

1 Thessalonians 4:161-18 KJV

How many more blessings is there than ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ? Ephesians 1:3 KJV

Certainly not physically !!!

The taking of Zion by David through the passages where the water from the springs below was lifted up from above (as how any well works) is what the erroneous teaching of a physical rapture in Thess. is an allegory of what will happen spiritually. (but only to some aka a remnant)

There is an event, I will give you that just as Pentecost was an event coming from heaven to those on earth as the 120 were able to pass from the outer court into the larger room symbolizing them becoming part of the temple of God seen in the purifying fire upon their heads

However, going from the larger room of imperfection into the smaller Holiest of the Holies representing the perfection of God where no sin exists (and where God appeared unto Moses within the clouds of smoke coming from the incense that represents the prayers of the saints) after the purifying fire has done its job, is the lifting up spiritually of those who qualify to be moved forward by God into the realm of perfection .

Part of being able to qualify for being moved forward into perfection requires one's knowledge of the foundation of Christ in us be the truth should God be willing as recorded in He.6:1-2 KJV.

One of the required truths to be known is the truth of our resurrection that the rapture theory is a total contradiction of. Those who believe in it are still living in sin because of the sin of false doctrines abiding in their unclean temples (hearts and minds)

 

[Sheila B]

...and a look at the third passage.

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away , and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase . 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed , neither shall they be lacking , saith the LORD. 5 Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper , and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved , and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS

This passage is a little more obscure than the two that preceded it but, with the information we already have in hand we can see it is related. As you noted if refers to The Messiah and His coming. Once again we see Him gathering His scattered flock on His way to rule and reign on Earth.




My point? I can think of several. Number one, with just these three passages we can see that there is no shortage of verses that speak of this event. One may also see that, by collecting the verses that contain the key words and phrases pointed out, one then has in hand many of the pieces necessary to put together the puzzle that is the circumstance concerning the return of the Messiah.

Number two, I think it may be seen that each of these puzzle pieces carries with them both information that is common to them all as well as information that is unique. Like puzzle pieces, no one individual piece carries with it all of the information necessary to see the big picture and it is for this reason that I think one would be ill advised to try and understand the subject they address by focusing on any single one of them. I would suggest that, to get an accurate view of this occurrence, one should gather the pieces, put them together and let them speak with a collective voice.

Number three, the post in which I offered you a reading list on this subject was spurred by your question as to whether or not the thousand year reign of Christ was on Earth or in Heaven. I would not begin to suggest that this question is answered by three passages but I think it not inaccurate to say one can see something of a pattern developing in them.

Would you care to look at some of the others … or, are there some in particular that you have questions about?

OK, I am on board with everything you have said in this post. One exception would be that I see the battle in heaven and on earth as having a current significance.

As I believe Jesus took over His "dominion" and "Kingdom" of Dan 7 and most of the NT at His ascension (well, even at his birth, as he was born king), I am looking at the passages with this thought also.

How about the next three verses? I have to work some today but will look at them when I have some time to ponder them and get back to you with my thoughts.

 

[Cross Reference]

Certainly not physically !!!

The taking of Zion by David through the passages where the water from the springs below was lifted up from above (as how any well works) is what the erroneous teaching of a physical rapture in Thess. is an allegory of what will happen spiritually. (but only to some aka a remnant)

There is an event, I will give you that just as Pentecost was an event coming from heaven to those on earth as the 120 were able to pass from the outer court into the larger room symbolizing them becoming part of the temple of God seen in the purifying fire upon their heads

However, going from the larger room of imperfection into the smaller Holiest of the Holies representing the perfection of God where no sin exists (and where God appeared unto Moses within the clouds of smoke coming from the incense that represents the prayers of the saints) after the purifying fire has done its job, is the lifting up spiritually of those who qualify to be moved forward by God into the realm of perfection .

Part of being able to qualify for being moved forward into perfection requires one's knowledge of the foundation of Christ in us be the truth should God be willing as recorded in He.6:1-2 KJV.

One of the required truths to be known is the truth of our resurrection that the rapture theory is a total contradiction of. Those who believe in it are still living in sin because of the sin of false doctrines abiding in their unclean temples (hearts and minds)

You, absolutely, have no clue what you are talking about.

Who are you reading that you come up with your 'abstract' perspective?? It's craziness!

 

[Cross Reference]

What it does not say is "except for when I send you part way back to gather all those on earth who call upon my name to come off of the earth and meet with me in the clouds".

That is why it is called a "catching away" rather than any kind of a return of Jesus to receive the "catching away" of His "Body" AKA His Church, __ the invisible one. Ergo, a physical "catching away" or "caught up", covers all the bases and it won't be symbolic!

 

[Cross Reference]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone View Post
There will never be a physical removal of the church (or a significant portion of it) off of the earth at any time.

Anybody who thinks there will be has been duped, and is furthering the desires of the enemies of God. They are contributing to keeping the church from the truth and obtaining the fulness of their inheritance

Sex you __ who writes his own bible.

That should read "Sez you". I have corrected the spelling twice that it should by a "z" and not an "x".

I am sorry but, I cannot apologize [because I often don't catch it] for this kind mis-print that seems to happen all too frequently these days that someone in TOL program department should look into. I already have a difficult time proof reading for me to pick up on this kind of auto, "uninvited as a courtesy " - spellcheck. It happens all to subtly to correct it. If I am the only one having this problem, I would like to know. Thanks to everyone __ even the MOD who gave me a warning.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That should read "Sez you". I have corrected the spelling twice that it should by a "z" and not an "x".

Try using a correctly spelled "Says you" instead of a misspelled "Sez you" and you may not have the issue again.

 

[Cross Reference]

Try using a correctly spelled "Says you" instead of a misspelled "Sez you" and you may not have the issue again.

I have had correctly spelled words changed on me by this __ whatever it is that I didn't invite to change anything.

 

[Livelystone]

That is why it is called a "catching away" rather than any kind of a return of Jesus to receive the "catching away" of His "Body" AKA His Church, __ the invisible one. Ergo, a physical "catching away" or "caught up", covers all the bases and it won't be symbolic!

How are you going to have Jesus not leave the right hand of His Father on the throne and still come back to meet people in the clouds pray tell?

There are no clouds in outer space and for the most part they only appear in the lower atmospheres OF EARTH !!!

 

[Livelystone]

Who are you reading that you come up with your 'abstract' perspective?? It's craziness!

The day I ever need a man to teach me the things of God will be the day He will call me home.

Fair enough?

 

[Cross Reference]

The day I ever need a man to teach me the things of God will be the day He will call me home.

Fair enough?

Fair enough?? That too, is a "crazy" reply. 1. I would want to be sure where home is. 2. All you have to go on is an subjective experience. You really should dig a little deeper into what it is you have placed your 'eggs'.

Try reading the Bible for understanding instead trying to find support for your spiritual bent.

 

[fzappa13]

OK, I am on board with everything you have said in this post. One exception would be that I see the battle in heaven and on earth as having a current significance.

As I believe Jesus took over His "dominion" and "Kingdom" of Dan 7 and most of the NT at His ascension (well, even at his birth, as he was born king), I am looking at the passages with this thought also.

Perhaps you would share some of the passages that have lead you to this conclusion.

How about the next three verses? I have to work some today but will look at them when I have some time to ponder them and get back to you with my thoughts.

I too have to work but, as time permits, I'll post some thoughts on the rest of the passages I offered.

 

[fzappa13]

Is the resurrection the same as the rapture?

There is also mention of a first resurrection.

There is a resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked.

Is there a later resurrection.

Specifically, in looking at the rapture, my question is:

Do the dead in Christ rise immediately prior to those alive in Christ meaning Him in the air?

Some believe when they die if they are a Christian they go straight to heaven. Is there any scriptural support for this?

Has Christ already or will Christ ever reign upon the earth?

Will believers or believing Jews reign with Him, or is our reign only likened unto Christ's in heaven which we know of already (perhaps this is already the case since He was seated or in fact is seated or at the right hand of God in heaven)?

... and before I forget ... there is more than one resurrection.

 

[Livelystone]

Fair enough?? That too, is a "crazy" reply. 1. I would want to be sure where home is. 2. All you have to go on is an subjective experience. You really should dig a little deeper into what it is you have placed your 'eggs'.

Try reading the Bible for understanding instead trying to find support for your spiritual bent.

Like I have said before, people who worship in spirit and in truth have signs and wonders following them....... they are the proof of passing the litmus test for God being with the person praying for miracles.

When there are no miracles following a ministry something is wrong with the ministry as it is against the word of God for the children of God who are worshipping Him in truth not to be followed with signs and wonders

Is.8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion

I have witnesses for recent life changing and life saving miracles that I would not have if I was not worshipping in truth and was like you worshipping lies and false doctrines about God and His plan for man

The Bible and myself are in agreement with this

John 3:2 the same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith is more about what you believe than how much you believe...... and is why you and the rest of the Pentecostal church in the US have not seen miracles for some time now even though your church first started with them........ that is a direct representation of how far you and your church have departed the truth

 

[Jacob]

... and before I forget ... there is more than one resurrection.

There is a first resurrection so there is more than one.

 

[fzappa13]

There is a first resurrection so there is more than one.

... and the first resurrection is the one associated with the return of Christ.

 

[Jacob]

... and the first resurrection is the one associated with the return of Christ.

Is the first resurrection the resurrection of the righteous? A second resurrection is not mentioned, but because there is a first there is more than one.

 

[Livelystone]

... and the first resurrection is the one associated with the return of Christ.

The first resurrection is associated with the beginning of our worshipping Jesus in truth when we pass from death unto life through believing in Him........ however if one is not worshipping in truth they will remain at a high risk until they learn the truth of the foundation of Christ in us that includes knowing the truth of the resurrection (as per He.6:1-2 KJV)

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

 

[Jacob]

Livelystone,

The question is if resurrection is for those as they are born again (not Biblical) or those who have died and then come back to life or enter into eternal life... whether on this earth, a new heaven and a new earth, or in heaven.