ECT The resurrection... specifically, the rapture.

[Sheila B]

Hi Untellectual, another thought that I am exploring: the "first fruits of the Lamb".

This expression refers to Jesus of course, and yet, these 144K are also called "first fruits and redeemed". I see this group set apart in the list of who's who of Hebrew 12:22. They are distinct from the "just men made perfect" in the festal gathering.

Note that "we also have come to Mt Zion" to this festal gathering.

I am thinking that this festal gathering is a liturgical feast where the gathering Above and the gathering here below are in sync.

 

[Jacob]

Yes. I heard a sermon on the details of those verses and became interested in exploring that viewpoint. That they are all males immediately leads to the priesthood aspect. I cannot imagine any other group of "only males" that would fit, can you?


I believe Melchisedek was not a lone wolf. Priesthoods are groups of men in Aaronic and Petrine so also Melchisedek.

Jesus is not alone in the sanctuary not made with hands, either.

Another thought I heard about the 144K is about the song only they can learn.

Josephus tells about the rivalry and envy of the hierarchy of sanctuary servers and that the "lower" levels wanted to wear the priestly robes of the "higher" and the songs also were contentious because the "lower" wanted again to learn the songs set apart only for the highest ministers.
Remember, only the High Priest could say the Name YHWH on the Day of Atonement. Only certain prayers (all sung as cantors sing), were sung by certain groups, the priests offering sacrifice.

Josephus says many believe these squabbles were the cause of the destruction of the Temple!! The inevitable grave sins of the priesthood means what it says: only certain people can wear the robes, sing the songs, etc... and St John indicates this will continue in the heavenly places.

This would be the point of how only these 144K and their successors alone could learn the special song.

Hi Untellectual, another thought that I am exploring: the "first fruits of the Lamb".

This expression refers to Jesus of course, and yet, these 144K are also called "first fruits and redeemed". I see this group set apart in the list of who's who of Hebrew 12:22. They are distinct from the "just men made perfect" in the festal gathering.

Note that "we also have come to Mt Zion" to this festal gathering.

I am thinking that this festal gathering is a liturgical feast where the gathering Above and the gathering here below are in sync.

There are the Levitical priests and there is the priesthood of Jesus according to the order of Melchizedek. It says there was a change in the priesthood, and this is it... meaning that is all. Some say it relates to Seth, but I venture to say that for this discussion that would not make sense.

 

[fzappa13]

If you cannot begin with 3 that is fine.

Okay. we can start with the first three. So, all you got out of the first three was "the time frames jump around a lot?" How so?

 

[Sheila B]

It says there was a change in the priesthood, and this is it... meaning that is all.

no more tribe of Levi, or Aaronic descendants.
new law, as in observances of Sabbaths, new moons, times and seasons, etc.
to name 2 categories of change.
I think the "binding and loosing" given to Peter and the 12 refer to these laws of practice, also.

Some say it relates to Seth, but I venture to say that for this discussion that would not make sense.

agreed.

 

[Jacob]

no more tribe of Levi, or Aaronic descendants.
new law, as in observances of Sabbaths, new moons, times and seasons, etc.
to name 2 categories of change.
I think the "binding and loosing" given to Peter and the 12 refer to these laws of practice, also.

agreed.

I'm not sure about about. There may be a tribe of Levi and no Levitical priesthood. But I don't understand prophecy and the book of Hebrews at the same time.

 

[Sheila B]

Okay. we can start with the first three. So, all you got out of the first three was "the time frames jump around a lot?" How so?

Zech 14:5 and 6 sounds like the final battle "Then the Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with him." This sounds like Rev 19:11 "Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse...the Word of God... v 14 "and the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure followed him on white horses."

But, it goes on to say: "And the Lord will become king over all the earth..." So, here is where I get lost.

What is your interpretation of this?

Micah 4 to me is speaking of the current Age, the "latter days." This, to me, is referring to Hebrews 12:22 where the church's liturgy on Mt Zion is where Jesus completes the nAtoning sacrifice as a perpetual minister in the sanctuary not made with hands.
"For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the lord from Jerusalem."

The rest sounds like an era of peace, but it has not come yet. Never have the nations beaten their swords intom plowshares, have they?

Jer 23: 1-6 Is a prophecy about the coming Messiah and His kingdom. Jesus said: "I have come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He came to gather them into the fold of his new law and new people. The shepherds He sets over them are the apostles and their successors .

OK, now what is your point?

 

[fzappa13]

Zech 14:5 and 6 sounds like the final battle "Then the Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with him." This sounds like Rev 19:11 "Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse...the Word of God... v 14 "and the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure followed him on white horses."

But, it goes on to say: "And the Lord will become king over all the earth..." So, here is where I get lost.

What is your interpretation of this?

Well, let's start by placing verse 6 and 7 back in the context I offered as they offer additional clues as to the timing of the event that they pertain to. I would like to address the passages I offered one at a time so as not to make an overlong post :

Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

First thing to note is the first sentence. This is THE day of the Lord. You will find this phrase through out the Bible and all such passages speak of the same day and give you additional details of this event. Jerusalem is taken. That differentiates this event from the one in which the Lord defends Jerusalem against attack at a later date. The Lord then comes to claim Jerusalem and reign over the world from there with his saints and Jerusalem will not be destroyed again. Jerusalem is raised. These are the high points and you will see many of them again elsewhere. You mention Revelation 19 and it would appear that this is indeed a snap shot of Jesus readying the troops before a decent upon Jerusalem in anticipation of His long awaited coronation and wedding.

 

[fzappa13]

Micah 4 to me is speaking of the current Age, the "latter days." This, to me, is referring to Hebrews 12:22 where the church's liturgy on Mt Zion is where Jesus completes the Atoning sacrifice as a perpetual minister in the sanctuary not made with hands.
"For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the lord from Jerusalem."

The rest sounds like an era of peace, but it has not come yet. Never have the nations beaten their swords into plowshares, have they?

Okay, let's have a look at Micah 4 remembering what we just saw in the previous passage:

Mic 4: 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come , and say , Come , and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid : for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth , and I will gather her that is driven out , and her that I have afflicted ; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock , the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come , even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. 9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished ? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail . 10 Be in pain , and labour to bring forth , O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail : for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered ; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies . 11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say , Let her be defiled , and let our eye look upon Zion. 12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. 13 Arise and thresh , O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.



This passage starts by referring to “the last days”. Once again we see Jerusalem raised and the Lord ruling and reigning from there from that point on. We also see a gathering of His people. This is referred to here and in other places in the Bible as being like childbirth. “A woman in travail” is the phrase used here and if you follow it across the Bible it too will lead you to multiple accounts of this event each with its own peculiar details describing the difficulties to be experienced before the Lord delivers those that are His. As so much of what is here is also in passages prefaced with the term “the day of the Lord” one might begin to suspect that both it and the term “the last days” preface the same events. As you noted there are aspects of this passage that, like the previous passage, preclude it having happened yet.

 

[Sheila B]

Okay, let's have a look at Micah 4 remembering what we just saw in the previous passage:

Mic 4: 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come , and say , Come , and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid : for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Never saw this before: Isn't this odd? they will walk in the name of their gods and we will walk in the name of the LORD. "forever and ever" ?? odd

Beating plowshares into pruning hooks sounds like the work of the Church NOW. The work of pruning the branches off the tree to make the tree stronger.

6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth , and I will gather her that is driven out , and her that I have afflicted ; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock , the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come , even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

"Unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion..." this sounds like a prophecy of the coming Messiah

9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished ? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail . 10 Be in pain , and labour to bring forth , O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail : for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered ; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies . 11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say , Let her be defiled , and let our eye look upon Zion. 12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. 13 Arise and thresh , O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

This sounds to me like it might also be a reference to Christ who rules with a rod of iron NOW.

This passage starts by referring to “the last days”. Once again we see Jerusalem raised and the Lord ruling and reigning from there from that point on. We also see a gathering of His people. This is referred to here and in other places in the Bible as being like childbirth. “A woman in travail” is the phrase used here and if you follow it across the Bible it too will lead you to multiple accounts of this event each with its own peculiar details describing the difficulties to be experienced before the Lord delivers those that are His. As so much of what is here is also in passages prefaced with the term “the day of the Lord” one might begin to suspect that both it and the term “the last days” preface the same events. As you noted there are aspects of this passage that, like the previous passage, preclude it having happened yet.

I see two time frames at least: the "latter days" are the current Age, for 2000 years, as scripture says we are in the latter days. and "the Day of the Lord" is the final battle or end of time.

I am thinking this Micah is speaking mostly about Christ's reign throughout this age.
It might have two levels of meaning, now and at the end of time.
"In many and various ways God spoke to our fathers by the prophets."

 

[fzappa13]

Jer 23: 1-6 Is a prophecy about the coming Messiah and His kingdom. Jesus said: "I have come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He came to gather them into the fold of his new law and new people. The shepherds He sets over them are the apostles and their successors.

...and a look at the third passage.

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away , and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase . 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed , neither shall they be lacking , saith the LORD. 5 Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper , and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved , and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS

This passage is a little more obscure than the two that preceded it but, with the information we already have in hand we can see it is related. As you noted if refers to The Messiah and His coming. Once again we see Him gathering His scattered flock on His way to rule and reign on Earth.

OK, now what is your point?

My point? I can think of several. Number one, with just these three passages we can see that there is no shortage of verses that speak of this event. One may also see that, by collecting the verses that contain the key words and phrases pointed out, one then has in hand many of the pieces necessary to put together the puzzle that is the circumstance concerning the return of the Messiah.

Number two, I think it may be seen that each of these puzzle pieces carries with them both information that is common to them all as well as information that is unique. Like puzzle pieces, no one individual piece carries with it all of the information necessary to see the big picture and it is for this reason that I think one would be ill advised to try and understand the subject they address by focusing on any single one of them. I would suggest that, to get an accurate view of this occurrence, one should gather the pieces, put them together and let them speak with a collective voice.

Number three, the post in which I offered you a reading list on this subject was spurred by your question as to whether or not the thousand year reign of Christ was on Earth or in Heaven. I would not begin to suggest that this question is answered by three passages but I think it not inaccurate to say one can see something of a pattern developing in them.

Would you care to look at some of the others … or, are there some in particular that you have questions about?

 

[Livelystone]

...and a look at the third passage.

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away , and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase . 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed , neither shall they be lacking , saith the LORD. 5 Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper , and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved , and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS

This passage is a little more obscure than the two that preceded it but, with the information we already have in hand we can see it is related. As you noted if refers to The Messiah and His coming. Once again we see Him gathering His scattered flock on His way to rule and reign on Earth.




My point? I can think of several. Number one, with just these three passages we can see that there is no shortage of verses that speak of this event. One may also see that, by collecting the verses that contain the key words and phrases pointed out, one then has in hand many of the pieces necessary to put together the puzzle that is the circumstance concerning the return of the Messiah.

Number two, I think it may be seen that each of these puzzle pieces carries with them both information that is common to them all as well as information that is unique. Like puzzle pieces, no one individual piece carries with it all of the information necessary to see the big picture and it is for this reason that I think one would be ill advised to try and understand the subject they address by focusing on any single one of them. I would suggest that, to get an accurate view of this occurrence, one should gather the pieces, put them together and let them speak with a collective voice.

Number three, the post in which I offered you a reading list on this subject was spurred by your question as to whether or not the thousand year reign of Christ was on Earth or in Heaven. I would not begin to suggest that this question is answered by three passages but I think it not inaccurate to say one can see something of a pattern developing in them.

Would you care to look at some of the others … or, are there some in particular that you have questions about?

I see persons like you everywhere promoting a literal interpretation of the verses of their choice while leaving other verses of their choice out of the equation because they unravel the yarn they have spun about the church being taken off of the earth.

Seven times the Bible repeats the same message for a reason that seems lost on those who would rather throw out the prayer we were taught to pray of heaven coming to earth and not the other way around as taught within the doctrine of the rapture of the saints...... a doctrine conceived by Satan and delivered to the church of the damned because like Adam and Eve they prefer to follow the words of satan over the Word of God

Seven times the Bible quotes "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool"

What it does not say is "except for when I send you part way back to gather all those on earth who call upon my name to come off of the earth and meet with me in the clouds".

Need I say more? I could and will but until all of you rapture ready advocates learn a fair bit more, you do not yet know enough to be able to tell how wrong you are, let alone understand the truth of God's plan for man.

 

[fzappa13]

I see persons like you everywhere promoting a literal interpretation of the verses of their choice while leaving other verses of their choice out of the equation because they unravel the yarn they have spun about the church being taken off of the earth.

Seven times the Bible repeats the same message for a reason that seems lost on those who would rather throw out the prayer we were taught to pray of heaven coming to earth and not the other way around as taught within the doctrine of the rapture of the saints...... a doctrine conceived by Satan and delivered to the church of the damned because like Adam and Eve they prefer to follow the words of satan over the Word of God

Seven times the Bible quotes "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool"

What it does not say is "except for when I send you part way back to gather all those on earth who call upon my name to come off of the earth and meet with me in the clouds".

Need I say more? I could and will but until all of you rapture ready advocates learn a fair bit more, you do not yet know enough to be able to tell how wrong you are, let alone understand the truth of God's plan for man.

Are you at all familiar with the Saturday Night Live character Emily Litella?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Litella

 

[Livelystone]

Are you at all familiar with the Saturday Night Live character Emily Litella?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Litella

If you are suggesting there is a satire on denominational end time teachings within your posts, a reference to what post this point is made would be in order.

This is not the Onion where unless you know the intent of the OP, even those who are world news savvy still fall for the line they are being fed

I would rather be wrong concerning my conclusion to the nature of your posts, but when I take a second look I still see a lot of typical end time of what will never be without you taking the time to point out you are against these teachings

 

[fzappa13]

If you are suggesting there is a satire on denominational end time teachings within your posts, a reference to what post this point is made would be in order.

This is not the Onion where unless you know the intent of the OP, even those who are world news savvy still fall for the line they are being fed

I would rather be wrong concerning my conclusion to the nature of your posts, but when I take a second look I still see a lot of typical end time of what will never be without you taking the time to point out you are against these teachings

mmmmmmmm... how do I put this nicely?

You have totally misread my belief and intent. I don't have the first clue why you posted what you did after reading the scriptures I offered and my brief comments. What you did post leads me to believe that, for whatever the reason, further attempts to communicate with you will likely be fruitless so ... I think I'll pass.

 

[Livelystone]

mmmmmmmm... how do I put this nicely?

You have totally misread my belief and intent. I don't have the first clue why you posted what you did after reading the scriptures I offered and my brief comments. What you did post leads me to believe that, for whatever the reason, further attempts to communicate with you will likely be fruitless so ... I think I'll pass.

If this is the case I somewhat appreciate you putting it nicely, but would rather be corrected and see where I missed what you are saying should have been caught.

However, I take your word for it and apologize

 

[Cross Reference]

I repeat, there is only one so-called rapture, Rev.12:5. Study it out to understand this whole event takes place in the middle of the Tribulation and there will be Christians who will go through the great tribulation.

 

[Livelystone]

I repeat, there is only one so-called rapture, Rev.12:5. Study it out to understand this whole event takes place in the middle of the Tribulation and there will be Christians who will go through the great tribulation.

There will never be a physical removal of the church (or a significant portion of it) off of the earth at any time.

Anybody who thinks there will be has been duped, and is furthering the desires of the enemies of God. They are contributing to keeping the church from the truth and obtaining the fulness of their inheritance

 

[Cross Reference]

There will never be a physical removal of the church (or a significant portion of it) off of the earth at any time.

Anybody who thinks there will be has been duped, and is furthering the desires of the enemies of God. They are contributing to keeping the church from the truth and obtaining the fulness of their inheritance

Sex you __ who writes his own bible.

That should read "Sez you". I have corrected the spelling twice that it should a "z" and not an "x".

I am sorry but, I cannot apologize [because I often don't catch it] for this kind mis-print that seems to happen all too frequently these days that someone in TOL program department should look into. I already have a difficult time proof reading for me to pick up on this kind of auto, "uninvited as a courtesy " - spellcheck. It happens all to subtly to correct it. If I am the only one having this problem, I would like to know. Thanks to everyone __ even the MOD who gave me a warning.

 

[Livelystone]

Sex you __ who writes his own bible.

Your post reveals the level of your knowledge of the things of God

It is persons like you who support the robbing of the elderly giving 10% of what they do not have to give because of trusting persons not qualified to teach, or lead them in their worship of God

 

[fzappa13]

One of the unfortunate aspects of the format of this forum finds any given post on any given thread bringing it briefly to the attention of those who can't be bothered to read the whole thread but feel compelled to make a pronouncements about it nonetheless. Hopefully this thread won't be totally derailed by such offerings.