ECT The resurrection... specifically, the rapture.

[Lazy afternoon]

So, what are we all doing up and at 'em at this hour. :chuckle:

The world is a big place.

LA

 

[fzappa13]

Good point worth consideration.

Thanks.

LA

I live to serve.

 

[Sheila B]

Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I am of the opinion that this group of martyrs for the faith were from St Stephen onward. This "thousand year reign" is not the Great Tribulation, but the Church Age. John says he is of this tribulation period when he begins his prophecy: Rev 1:9

I John your brother share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the endurance.

These martyrs are immediately before God at death and are in heaven as the worshipping community of Hebrews 12:22-24.
They are a "great cloud of witnesses" alomngside the OT saints above referred to in Heb 12:1

"Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"

These folks are part of the ministers in the sanctuary not made with hands of Rev 14:1-5
and
Rev 5 (entire chapter)

These worshipping souls are one group above that are in unison with we who are below as it says in Rev 5: 10

"and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God and they shall reign on earth."

 

[Sheila B]

The first resurrection is in spirit only. Jesus has His glorified body, but we must wait.

The final resurrection of ALL souls will be at the very end of time when all souls will receive their earthly bodies again. The rewards and the sufferings of the damned will be with body and soul.

As sins and love both have taken place by the agency of the body- the body will take part in the result of its choices/deeds. Some to everlasting horror.

 

[Sheila B]

... and the first resurrection is the one associated with the return of Christ.

Doesn't scripture say that Jesus' ascension was the first resurrection?

 

[Sheila B]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 NASB - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

At the Great White Throne Judgement it says:
Rev 20:13

"And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done."

This agrees with Matt 25.

There are many verses dealing with the time frame of the Ascension through the tribulation (Church age) and the Great Trib etc. All log before this moment in time.

Are any of these souls called "the dead in Christ"??

Notice that only Death and Hades goes into the Lake of Fire. The sea is said to "Be no more" but is not thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:1

"And the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more."

This sea is part of the Kingdom Above as it says in Rev 4:6

"and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass like crystal."

The Great Molten Sea of the OT sacrificial system has its counterpart Above.

My point is: the place called "sea" is part of the kingdom of believers. A purifying "place" Not location per say, but the reality of purification as we will undergo the burning of wood hay and stubble, but we will be saved as through fire. Some souls will not be resurrected until the end, and these will be believers whose name is found to be in the book of life.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB - Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Cross Reference]

Doesn't scripture say that Jesus' ascension was the first resurrection?

You ask but have already declared, it does!!

 

[Jacob]

As was I.

Jesus rose from the dead, and there will come a day when each of us will rise from the dead. I am not sure what that will look like. Does the resurrection occur immediately after a person dies? Maybe not? Maybe so?

 

[Jacob]

You took 5 minutes to respond to a lengthy post. It has been my experience that you usually consider matters a little longer than that before responding. What's the hurry?

No hurry. I was glad to have been able to respond.

 

[Jacob]

At the Great White Throne Judgement it says:
Rev 20:13

"And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done."

This agrees with Matt 25.

There are many verses dealing with the time frame of the Ascension through the tribulation (Church age) and the Great Trib etc. All log before this moment in time.

Are any of these souls called "the dead in Christ"??

Notice that only Death and Hades goes into the Lake of Fire. The sea is said to "Be no more" but is not thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:1

"And the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more."

This sea is part of the Kingdom Above as it says in Rev 4:6

"and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass like crystal."

The Great Molten Sea of the OT sacrificial system has its counterpart Above.

My point is: the place called "sea" is part of the kingdom of believers. A purifying "place" Not location per say, but the reality of purification as we will undergo the burning of wood hay and stubble, but we will be saved as through fire. Some souls will not be resurrected until the end, and these will be believers whose name is found to be in the book of life.

Does resurrection occur when a person dies or at a later date?

 

[fzappa13]

Doesn't scripture say that Jesus' ascension was the first resurrection?

No, it says He was the first resurrected.

1 Cor: 15 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Sheila B]

Is the resurrection the same as the rapture?

Here are a few of my thoughts "today". I say it that way, because I hope to keep learning and refining what I believe.
The rapture theory that was proposed in the early 20th C refers to Christians being saved from the wrath to come, the Great tribulation. I used to believe this, but did find too many verses that seemed to contradict this.
Anyway, therefore, it is different than the general resurrection of the human bodies since Adam and Eve to the end of time.

There is also mention of a first resurrection.

There is a resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked.

Is there a later resurrection.

I am not sure about all this yet; am trying to read and ponder scripture and learn.

Specifically, in looking at the rapture, my question is:

Do the dead in Christ rise immediately prior to those alive in Christ meaning Him in the air?

And I would add: in addition to this question, what is the difference between these terms? Are they only to be taken literally? There are scriptures that allude to the fact that the dead in Christ rise at the very end and are saved.

Some believe when they die if they are a Christian they go straight to heaven. Is there any scriptural support for this?

Hebrews 11 and 12.

Has Christ already or will Christ ever reign upon the earth?

There are verses galore that indicate He is reigning right NOW.
His appearances to Paul indicate this also.
He accepted His kingdom when He sat down at the right hand of God.
What king does not reign???

Will believers or believing Jews reign with Him, or is our reign only likened unto Christ's in heaven which we know of already (perhaps this is already the case since He was seated or in fact is seated or at the right hand of God in heaven)?

I would say so. Still reading and learning, however.

 

[Jacob]

1 Corinthians 15:23 NASB - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

 

[Sheila B]

No, it says He was the first resurrected.

1 Cor: 15 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Hebrews 12:22 says we have not come to Mt Siani, but we have come to Mt Zion.

Heb 5:6 Says when Jesus accepted His Kingdom, he was surrounded by "elders". v8mentions the elders
v11 mentions the elders
Elders were the leaders of the OT and NT saints.

Scripture says Jesus preached to those in prison (his 3 days in the tomb) and took a host of captives captive when He ascended. There are verses that indicate satan was thrown out of heaven to earth at this time.

Rev 6:9 souls under the altar wonder about the timing:
O Sovereign Lord, Holy and True, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?
v11 they are told to wait a bit until the number of their brethren and fellow servants will be compete...

There are more...
My point being- these must also be first fruits to God and the Lamb that are in heaven while the church overcomes on earth.

 

[Sheila B]

No, it says He was the first resurrected.

Jesus said I AM the Resurrection and the Life.

How those outside of time are one with us as we travel through time is beyond my grasp to explain or comprehend.

The Resurrection is in some sense, outside of created time and is the Eternal True God.

 

[Sheila B]

Does resurrection occur when a person dies or at a later date?

I have always understood it to mean when our souls in heaven receive our bodies at the end of time.

At death, when we are judged (personally) absent from the body and present to the Lord- I do not see this as referred to as the resurrection.

1 Cor 3:10-14 calls our death and judgement "the day" but this is not the final great Day of the Lord, where all humanity will stand before the White Throne.

But this "day" is not properly called a resurrection. Here, the soul/spirit is judged, without its body.

What holes do you see in this line of reasoning?

 

[Sheila B]

You ask but have already declared, it does!!

:sherlock:

thinking out loud sometimes!

 

[fzappa13]

Jesus said I AM the Resurrection and the Life.

How those outside of time are one with us as we travel through time is beyond my grasp to explain or comprehend.

The Resurrection is in some sense, outside of created time and is the Eternal True God.

I did all I know to do and that is offer scripture. You either hear it or you don't.

 

[Jacob]

I have always understood it to mean when our souls in heaven receive our bodies at the end of time.

At death, when we are judged (personally) absent from the body and present to the Lord- I do not see this as referred to as the resurrection.

1 Cor 3:10-14 calls our death and judgement "the day" but this is not the final great Day of the Lord, where all humanity will stand before the White Throne.

But this "day" is not properly called a resurrection. Here, the soul/spirit is judged, without its body.

What holes do you see in this line of reasoning?

A person who dies will be resurrected. We will all be changed. Those in Christ is different from those who are not. It is true that each and every person will be judged. After a person dies there is judgment. There will be judgment and resurrection.

If a person is righteous because of Christ their resurrection is different than all others. This person, or these, will not experience the second death (the lake of fire).

That is how I understand it.

 

[Sheila B]

A person who dies will be resurrected. We will all be changed. Those in Christ is different from those who are not. It is true that each and every person will be judged. After a person dies there is judgment. There will be judgment and resurrection.

If a person is righteous because of Christ their resurrection is different than all others. This person, or these, will not experience the second death (the lake of fire).

That is how I understand it.

This covers all the basics, that's for sure! I can't see how anyone could object to these basic notions.