The Personal Side of the Homosexual Debate

[csuguy]

In any case, your experience and ideas about it are not the yardstick by which everyone else's sexual experiences and ideas must conform. Using yourself as the standard, so as to pass judgment on others, is the height of hubris.

I am an alcoholic. I experience alcohol differently than other people do. So much so that I have to avoid it. Yet I have many friends who can drink it, as they wish, because they do not experience it in the same way, or degree as me.

My point is that we are all different. Just because you can do something doesn't mean everyone else can, or should. And just because you can't do something doesn't mean no one else should. To ignore this simple fact of reality is just foolish. And to persist in such ignorance is hubris.

I'm not speaking of anything that is outside of the common human experience. If you find anything I've said is not common among mankind then bring it up for discussion. Do you have romantic/sexual feelings for every good looking human you see? Is there no-one that, though attractive, you would never desire a relationship with?

You make a valid point that we each have our own respective strengths and weaknesses - but that also makes strengths and weaknesses a common human experience, even if the specifics differ.

I also have not judged anyone here - I'm speaking purely about the ability to control one's sexual desires and to even change them overtime.

 

[Arthur Brain]

One has lots of control over that - you form attachments with those you focus on and spend your time forming those strong attachments with. Conversely, if you decide you don't want a relationship with someone - then you won't form those attachments.

No, you don't. You don't wake up one morning and 'decide' to fall in love with someone. You can make decisions as to whether a relationship is viable and whatnot but your feelings for another person are not something that is within your control.

 

[csuguy]

No, you don't. You don't wake up one morning and 'decide' to fall in love with someone. You can make decisions as to whether a relationship is viable and whatnot but your feelings for another person are not something that is within your control.

Throughout this whole discussion I've never once suggested that our attractions and attachments are a binary switch that we can just turn it on/off on the spot. You keep returning to this straw man despite my explicit rejection of this notion.

You get to make decisions as to whether or not you want to pursue a relationship with someone, as well as what kind of relationship that is. If you pursue a romantic relationship with someone, then you form emotional attachments with them as your spend your time and energy making that happen.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Throughout this whole discussion I've never once suggested that our attractions and attachments are a binary switch that we can just turn it on/off on the spot. You keep returning to this straw man despite my explicit rejection of this notion.

You get to make decisions as to whether or not you want to pursue a relationship with someone, as well as what kind of relationship that is. If you pursue a romantic relationship with someone, then you form emotional attachments with them as your spend your time and energy making that happen.

If you pursue a romantic relationship then why would you bother if you don't already have an emotional attachment to that person? I'm not talking about a casual attraction or something sexual at core here. You don't get any kind of say in developing a feeling of actual love for someone in that sense, that was my point. It's simply not something you have any control over whatsoever.

 

[Ktoyou]

You are both right about different subjects, there is attraction, which is erotic and there is love were one has affinity, parent and child, very good friends.

Friendship is social and emotional, some have both in one person

 

[csuguy]

If you pursue a romantic relationship then why would you bother if you don't already have an emotional attachment to that person?

Because you find them physically attractive and, having interacted with them, find that you have a lot in common and could potentially be a good couple... Crazy I know

I'm not talking about a casual attraction or something sexual at core here. You don't get any kind of say in developing a feeling of actual love for someone in that sense, that was my point. It's simply not something you have any control over whatsoever.

You do have control over those feelings - whether to nourish or smother them. That is my point.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Because you find them physically attractive and, having interacted with them, find that you have a lot in common and could potentially be a good couple... Crazy I know

You can have all of that and still not be in actual love with someone. That emotional attachment isn't something you can consciously will to come about. I'm not saying that your above doesn't often play an important part in how such a feeling for someone might develop - but you never have any control over that feeling itself.

You do have control over those feelings - whether to nourish or smother them. That is my point.

Um, no you don't. If you're actually in love with someone then you have no control at all over such appearing or diminishing, that's my point. How you act on those feelings is different entirely, obviously.

 

[csuguy]

You can have all of that and still not be in actual love with someone. That emotional attachment isn't something you can consciously will to come about. I'm not saying that your above doesn't often play an important part in how such a feeling for someone might develop - but you never have any control over that feeling itself.

It is something you consciously pursue via your actions. Aka - taking the above as a starting point, you decide to invest your time and energy into developing a relationship with the person in question. Through your actions and explicit will to pursue a relationship with this person, you develop attachments and deep feelings for them.

So then, your conscious decisions play a very large role in your romantic life.

Um, no you don't. If you're actually in love with someone then you have no control at all over such appearing or diminishing, that's my point. How you act on those feelings is different entirely, obviously.

Yes you do - as discussed above, by your own efforts can you take a possible connection and turn it into a full blown romantic relationship that may last for life. Conversely, you can give up on a relationship, decide you don't wish to pursue it anymore, and let it die. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high in this country?

 

[S0ZO]

You can have all of that and still not be in actual love with someone. That emotional attachment isn't something you can consciously will to come about. I'm not saying that your above doesn't often play an important part in how such a feeling for someone might develop - but you never have any control over that feeling itself.



Um, no you don't. If you're actually in love with someone then you have no control at all over such appearing or diminishing, that's my point. How you act on those feelings is different entirely, obviously.

There is no difference than the desire to be with someone of the same sex than the desire to want to steal a car. It's the act that is wrong. People can claim they love that car, but it doesn't make it right to drive off with it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It is something you consciously pursue via your actions. Aka - taking the above as a starting point, you decide to invest your time and energy into developing a relationship with the person in question. Through your actions and explicit will to pursue a relationship with this person, you develop attachments and deep feelings for them.

So then, your conscious decisions play a very large role in your romantic life.

It really isn't as cut and dried as you would have it be. I'll give you a personal example which will hopefully underscore the point. Twelve years ago I attended a film studies course at the local college and got to know a lass there. We got on, there was an initial attraction there but for me, at the time, it didn't develop into anything more. She seemed interested but I saw it more as a friendship so I didn't actually do anything to pursue anything further. My friends at the time were thinking I should have done because we got on so well but for me it wasn't there, and then suddenly - BAM! It was. As life sometimes goes she'd just fallen for one of her best friends and it was an unpleasantly ironic situation for all concerned frankly.

I already cared for her, and had an emotional bond of friendship with her but I had absolutely zero control over those feelings developing into something more, and neither did she. We had a few drinks and a 'laugh' over the irony of the entire thing. You simply do not get a conscious call in how you feel about someone.

Yes you do - as discussed above, by your own efforts can you take a possible connection and turn it into a full blown romantic relationship that may last for life. Conversely, you can give up on a relationship, decide you don't wish to pursue it anymore, and let it die. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high in this country?

You don't get a say where it comes to falling in love with someone as outlined above. You don't get to either switch it on or off either. Have you ever been in love with somebody?

 

[Quincy]

Yes you do - as discussed above, by your own efforts can you take a possible connection and turn it into a full blown romantic relationship that may last for life. Conversely, you can give up on a relationship, decide you don't wish to pursue it anymore, and let it die. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high in this country?

It's never worked that way for me. I wish I knew where you found your easy button for romance, :chuckle: .

It sounds to me like you're talking about a rational partnership in which a bond grows, then can be broken but not something like chemistry driven, passionate love. That is why there is such a high divorce rate. People get together because of just attraction, age, interests, not wanting to be alone, etc etc but they don't have the chemistry to make it last. Unless they have devotion to some higher mumbo jumbo, then they end up looking like American Gothic.

 

[csuguy]

It really isn't as cut and dried as you would have it be. I'll give you a personal example which will hopefully underscore the point. Twelve years ago I attended a film studies course at the local college and got to know a lass there. We got on, there was an initial attraction there but for me, at the time, it didn't develop into anything more. She seemed interested but I saw it more as a friendship so I didn't actually do anything to pursue anything further. My friends at the time were thinking I should have done because we got on so well but for me it wasn't there, and then suddenly - BAM! It was. As life sometimes goes she'd just fallen for one of her best friends and it was an unpleasantly ironic situation for all concerned frankly.

I already cared for her, and had an emotional bond of friendship with her but I had absolutely zero control over those feelings developing into something more, and neither did she. We had a few drinks and a 'laugh' over the irony of the entire thing. You simply do not get a conscious call in how you feel about someone.

You do get a conscious call in the matter - you chose to pursue those feelings and nourish them. You keep returning to this false idea that I'm asserting one has complete control over them - like a switch board. That is not at all what I am saying - please take this chance to go back over a couple of my previous posts and see what my position actually is. One has control over them over time, to transform how one feels through their actions. Romantic feelings can be nourished or squashed by our choices.

You don't get a say where it comes to falling in love with someone as outlined above. You don't get to either switch it on or off either. Have you ever been in love with somebody?

Do you feel the same concerning divorce - one day its there, and then another it disappears completely independent of your conscious decisions and will?

 

[csuguy]

It's never worked that way for me. I wish I knew where you found your easy button for romance, :chuckle: .

I am obviously speaking in generic terms.

It sounds to me like you're talking about a rational partnership in which a bond grows, then can be broken but not something like chemistry driven, passionate love.

Your feelings, passion, are controlled by your decisions and values. If you decide you want to pursue someone, your emotions respond to that. They also respond to you saying - "No, I don't want to pursue a relationship with them."

 

[Arthur Brain]

You do get a conscious call in the matter - you chose to pursue those feelings and nourish them. You keep returning to this false idea that I'm asserting one has complete control over them - like a switch board. That is not at all what I am saying - please take this chance to go back over a couple of my previous posts and see what my position actually is. One has control over them over time, to transform how one feels through their actions. Romantic feelings can be nourished or squashed by our choices.

I've just explained how you don't, and Quincy's prior sums it up as well frankly. I didn't have any say as I'd already decided not to pursue a romantic relationship with someone. That did squat to stop me from then falling in love with this woman - which by then was too late to do anything about. You can't reduce feelings of love to courses of action or decision making. It strikes me that you've never actually been in love with anybody to try and maintain this.

Do you feel the same concerning divorce - one day its there, and then another it disappears completely independent of your conscious decisions and will?

There's many reasons why people divorce so it's not as simplistic as just one day losing all feeling for someone frankly. You're setting up a strawman with this argument.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I am obviously speaking in generic terms.



Your feelings, passion, are controlled by your decisions and values. If you decide you want to pursue someone, your emotions respond to that. They also respond to you saying - "No, I don't want to pursue a relationship with them."

One of these days you're gonna get a wake up call and you'll have no say so in it whatsoever. That's what happens when you fall in love with someone. It's beyond your control, and it can be a wonderful or painful experience depending...

 

[Ktoyou]

There is no difference than the desire to be with someone of the same sex than the desire to want to steal a car. It's the act that is wrong. People can claim they love that car, but it doesn't make it right to drive off with it.

All I can say it if you get that attraction for someone the same sex you are plugged up.
:crackup:
I may want to steal a ride in a Ferrari, but I do not want to do wrong, get into trouble, do not want to do harm, not give into earthly desire.
If I was to go around chasing old ladies, please lock me up and throw away the key, as that is nuts however you define it.

I have to go to bed now, goodnight

 

[csuguy]

One of these days you're gonna get a wake up call and you'll have no say so in it whatsoever. That's what happens when you fall in love with someone. It's beyond your control, and it can be a wonderful or painful experience depending...

I've been infatuated with people - I know how it goes. I also know that my decisions regarding that person have the ability to nourish or smother my affections for them. No - its not a switch that I can turn on/off in the moment, it takes time - but I am in control all the same.

 

[csuguy]

I've just explained how you don't, and Quincy's prior sums it up as well frankly. I didn't have any say as I'd already decided not to pursue a romantic relationship with someone. That did squat to stop me from then falling in love with this woman - which by then was too late to do anything about. You can't reduce feelings of love to courses of action or decision making. It strikes me that you've never actually been in love with anybody to try and maintain this.

You did have a decision - whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not. You might not have chosen to have your initial feelings - but you chose to act on them and nourish them, you chose to develop a romantic relationship and form further emotional attachments beyond that of a mere friend. Your feelings didn't force you to do this as if you were a puppet - you liked the feeling and so pursued it of your own freewill.

You also continue to misrepresent my position. I don't boil it down to simply a course of action/decision making - I simply acknowledge that one's decisions play a major role in nourishing or destroying the relationship. Feelings can be changed through our conscious decisions and will overtime.

There's many reasons why people divorce so it's not as simplistic as just one day losing all feeling for someone frankly. You're setting up a strawman with this argument.

No I'm not. Either love is beyond our control, and so it comes and goes independent of our decisions and will - or our decisions are important to the nourishing/death of a relationship. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Quincy]

No offense to anyone, but chemistry driven love isn't rational. You can try and make it rational all you like but it doesn't work that way. You might avoid acting on it post discovery, but you have no choice in it happening and if it ever goes away, it's because it wasn't nurtured properly.

Chemistry is a real thing, not something you can explain but rather something you experience. It's like finding Jesus or Nirvana, I suppose. It's not lust, obsession or anything like that. It's just there when you come across the right man or woman, or person, depending.

Where the topics of chemistry and falling in love intersect with homosexuality is whether or not you can believe homosexuals experience the same thing. Some people might believe they can't and others believe they can. I don't know, I'm not a homosexual but for every day there's a night. If two opposite sex people can find that kind of love, logically you can deduce that two same sex folks can.

That's as far as I go with it. I'm not a teacher of morality, so it doesn't matter to me whether or not homosexuals act on it. It's their business.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You did have a decision - whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not. You might not have chosen to have your initial feelings - but you chose to act on them and nourish them, you chose to develop a romantic relationship and form further emotional attachments beyond that of a mere friend. Your feelings didn't force you to do this as if you were a puppet - you liked the feeling and so pursued it of your own freewill.

Eh?! Are you even reading what I've written? How in blue blazes could I have 'enjoyed' the feeling when by the time they occurred I already knew that nothing could come about with the woman I'd just fallen in love with?????!! :doh:

I didn't choose that at all. Why on earth would I? If I did have a say in those feelings developing I'd have switched them off as it ain't much fun being in love with someone where nothing can happen, for pretty much bloody obvious reasons I would have thought. You honestly do not have a clue what you're talking about and it's only experience that will teach you I reckon...

You also continue to misrepresent my position. I don't boil it down to simply a course of action/decision making - I simply acknowledge that one's decisions play a major role in nourishing or destroying the relationship. Feelings can be changed through our conscious decisions and will overtime.

Well, in fact you do as given your above. Someday you'll find out you can't reduce love to an intellectual rationalization.

No I'm not. Either love is beyond our control, and so it comes and goes independent of our decisions and will - or our decisions are important to the nourishing/death of a relationship. You can't have it both ways.

Love is most certainly beyond your control as you will one day hopefully find out. Maintaining a relationship with its ups and downs can test it, and in some cases people lose that which brought them together but you're still overly simplistic about it.