ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Actually, the lost do have the ability to do right; but that Tree's "knowledge of good" passed on as it was in an act of unrighteousness, is not God's standard of "good."
Result?
"ALL OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...comes SHORT of the glory of God" no matter how wonderful we are.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Let's face it. Original sin is the lynchpin of the T in Tulip. Without the depravity of man, it would wilt on the vine. The more I look into the verses that are used as "proof texts", the more I see how they have been ripped out of their context and are contradicted by the entirety of the Scripture.
It's also why there is such a battle over the idea of "free will". It's all tied together and dates back to what happened in the garden of Eden.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You acknowledge that this death in "bold" here is speaking about spiritual death:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
Since all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin then that means that previous to sinning they were spiritually alive. After all, it is impossible for anyone to die spiritually unless he is alive spirritually.
When do you say that a person is first alive spiritually?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
EXACTLY!
glorydaz
Well-known member
People choose to do the right thing every day of the week. Even the unsaved are able to do that.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No it doesn't. That's why you can't put forward any proof from Scripture. You are only able to parrot what you've been taught according to the doctrines of men.
dodge
New member
After they place their faith in the finished work of Jesus.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
dodge
New member
Yes actually it does unless you believe "SIN" is God's nature.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
It is NOT a teaching of men it is a teaching of God and His scripture that you are disagreeing with.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So people can be made alive spiritually when they put their faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus and then sometime later can die again spiritually when they sin?
dodge
New member
Nope, there is no being born again "again" according to scripture they ask God's forgiveness and move along.
Have you never read one of the most powerful testimonies in scripture?
"I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day" !
dodge
New member
When he was created in God's image.
God asked Adam ,"have you done that which I told you not to do" ?
And God prepared a skin of clothes to clothe Adam and Eve.....blood was shed and without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sin.Compare Able's offering and Cain's offering.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
dodge,
Earlier I said:
You acknowledge that this death in "bold" here is speaking about spiritual death:
Since all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin then that means that previous to sinning they were spiritually alive. After all, it is impossible for anyone to die spiritually unless he is alive spiritually.
When do you say that a person is first alive spiritually? To this you answered:
So let me get this straight. You say that a person emerges from the womb spiritually dead. And then when he puts his faith in the finished work of Christ they are made alive. Is that right?
Then we can see from this verse that those who are alive spiritually die when they sin:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
So according to you these are the stages in a man when it comes to spiritual death and life:
First, a person is at birth spiritually dead.
Second, when that person believes the gospel he receives spiritual life.
Third, when he sins he dies spiritually.
That represents the stages of spiritual death and life according to your teaching. But it doesn't make any sense to me.
Earlier I said:
You acknowledge that this death in "bold" here is speaking about spiritual death:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
Since all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin then that means that previous to sinning they were spiritually alive. After all, it is impossible for anyone to die spiritually unless he is alive spiritually.
When do you say that a person is first alive spiritually? To this you answered:
So let me get this straight. You say that a person emerges from the womb spiritually dead. And then when he puts his faith in the finished work of Christ they are made alive. Is that right?
Then we can see from this verse that those who are alive spiritually die when they sin:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
So according to you these are the stages in a man when it comes to spiritual death and life:
First, a person is at birth spiritually dead.
Second, when that person believes the gospel he receives spiritual life.
Third, when he sins he dies spiritually.
That represents the stages of spiritual death and life according to your teaching. But it doesn't make any sense to me.
dodge
New member
Jerry, when anyone is born they are dead spiritually and if the Lord Jesus tarries they will die physically.
When Jesus said, " you must be born again " do you believe that person was already alive spiritually ? IF Nicodemus was alive spiritually why then would Jesus emphasize that he must be born again spiritually ?
Correct.
Correct.
INCORRECT.
Physically alive folks sin while they are spiritually dead and then when they are born again ( spiritually ) Born again folks ,when they sin, they ask God's forgiveness.
You added a stage that does not exist. Born again folks do NOT become UN-born again when they sin.
There are only 2 types of people those that have placed their faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus and those that have not. So they are either spiritually alive or they are spiritually dead.
1st John explains what a Christian does when they sin i.e. they ask for forgiveness.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Adam was created in the image of God and he sinned.
There goes your argument right out the window. Try again.
Being created in the image of God does not mean man was created with God's nature. I don't know where you get that idea.
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musterion
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, you added a stage that doesn't even exist. According to your idea no one is alive spiritually until they believe. So according to your idea the "death" spoken of in "bold" is about those who were previously alive spiritually and have already believed:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
You said that this verse is referring to spiritual death. So if you are right the words in "bold" are referring to those who have already believed and have been made alive spiritually. If you are right then we see that those who are spiritually alive die spiritually when they sin.
dodge
New member
You are sure putting a lot of words in my mouth that I do NOT believe nor have ever said. YOU are assuming and believing I believe what I do NOT.
Fact 1 In Adam all die we are his progeny and inherited both of his deaths physical and spiritual.
God took care of Adam and Eve when he clothed Adam and with Animal skins. Bllod was shed and they were covered.
FACT 2. dead men are wooed by the Holy Spirit and convicted of sins committed and righteousness forfeited. Many reject God drawing them to His Son and are NEVER born again. Some are humbled and admit they have sinned against God and accept His forgiveness and salvation.
Fact 3.Saved or lost death , if Jesus tarries, comes to ALL men both saved and lost.